Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[Charles]

Maybe in the special Olympics...

Hanging shifts out to dry while accelerating and downshifting so far when coming down any sort of gradient until you either pull the trans into neutral yourself else leave it alone and wait for the BOOM into 5th or the inevitable ba, da, ding, ba, da, ding red popup window alerting you that you are now under reduced engine power due to low engine oil pressure....... is the kind of trans I would nominate for the special olympics category behind a 6.7!

An Eaton Fuller 9 with a hole cut in the floor and big goofy ass shifter where the console used to be would be a HELLUVA better option!

Run FASTER unloaded too because it wouldn't leave the engine out to dry all over the limiter for a 3-5 count on each gear with the converter unlocked.

Loaded, it would just STAY IN GEAR.... what a concept.

And no..... you can't use the shift buttons and manual mode because the delay on those buttons is about 3 times longer than the actual time the engine should even be in a single gear up to about gear 7. So 1,2,3,4,5 for sure all need to happen in the time those buttons would accomplish the ONE-TWO shift, while just sitting on the limiter blinking the number 3, 3, 3, 3......... and then finally going to 3...... hanging up on the limiter for a 3 count while blinking 4, 4, 4, 4..... meanwhile you have pressed the upshift button 1568 times at this point....

When the trans shifts while the truck is FULLY LOADED at WOT it is FIRM, CRISP AND RIGHT NOW on each and every one, skips no gears and shows that the trans is NOT THE PROBLEM. The hundreds of tables and the morons writing them into the TCM are. If there were a PCS for the 10R and a way to tell the 6.7 ECM to STFU about the trans, you could have a hell of a unit. Until then, you have a flaming piece of commy shit with no throttle response trying to wipe the bearings out in the engine and snap something in the trans if you allow it to downshift from 10-9....9-8......8-7.....7-6...... and you don't intervene at that point on the high side of 3500 rpm..... it WILL go for the 6-5.... and BOOOOOOM!

NO.... WAY.... it could do that shift more than a few dozen times before you were walking....

Driving this truck is like riding in a semi with a kid trying to learn how to drive who just keeps over-revving each shift until you're totally off boost, up on the governor, the load has shifted and now he's bound and can't get it OUT of gear.... then finally does only to get into the next gear so late that he's immediately again on the gov.... bound up.... another KA...KUNG out of gear and CLAAAAAAAAASH into the next one with a huge jarring deceleration because again.... it's too late for this gear!

Difference is..... the kid LEARNS and stops over-revving and being a moron.... the 10R180 DOESN'T! In fact.... unless you clear it and disable learning, it will learn itself into the most retarded shifting imaginable. At least imaginable for someone who has driven the pos. Beforehand I wouldn't have been able to imagine a shift strategy THAT RETARDED!

Trans seems fine. Strategy is junk. I pulled everything down with HP Tuners and after looking through that abortion decided there was no saving it. You can change lockup strategy in one place, then you change the radio station and it uses a different map. You find it, then you put on the blinker and it uses another map still. Then you touch the brake pedal..... you guessed it.... abother map for that... then the inclinometer goes over xxxx degrees..... yep... another map...... turned on exhaust brake or tow/haul?..... another and another...... trans temp below xxx.... you guessed it..... another map..... to the tune of HUNDREDS of times...

It's an absolute miracle the things EVER actually MAKE a shift or that they EVER actually lock up at all! They have to make 687,362 decisions and turn 2 nuclear keys simultaneously in order to lockup.... and all that has to happen before you go 20 feet forward.... GOOD LUCK!

The 4:30 gear makes the delay problem painfully obvious. It is ALWAYS behind

 

[lincolnlocker]

Hanging shifts out to dry while accelerating and downshifting so far when coming down any sort of gradient until you either pull the trans into neutral yourself else leave it alone and wait for the BOOM into 5th or the inevitable ba, da, ding, ba, da, ding red popup window alerting you that you are now under reduced engine power due to low engine oil pressure....... is the kind of trans I would nominate for the special olympics category behind a 6.7!

An Eaton Fuller 9 with a hole cut in the floor and big goofy ass shifter where the console used to be would be a HELLUVA better option!

Run FASTER unloaded too because it wouldn't leave the engine out to dry all over the limiter for a 3-5 count on each gear with the converter unlocked.

Loaded, it would just STAY IN GEAR.... what a concept.

And no..... you can't use the shift buttons and manual mode because the delay on those buttons is about 3 times longer than the actual time the engine should even be in a single gear up to about gear 7. So 1,2,3,4,5 for sure all need to happen in the time those buttons would accomplish the ONE-TWO shift, while just sitting on the limiter blinking the number 3, 3, 3, 3......... and then finally going to 3...... hanging up on the limiter for a 3 count while blinking 4, 4, 4, 4..... meanwhile you have pressed the upshift button 1568 times at this point....

When the trans shifts while the truck is FULLY LOADED at WOT it is FIRM, CRISP AND RIGHT NOW on each and every one, skips no gears and shows that the trans is NOT THE PROBLEM. The hundreds of tables and the morons writing them into the TCM are. If there were a PCS for the 10R and a way to tell the 6.7 ECM to STFU about the trans, you could have a hell of a unit. Until then, you have a flaming piece of commy shit with no throttle response trying to wipe the bearings out in the engine and snap something in the trans if you allow it to downshift from 10-9....9-8......8-7.....7-6...... and you don't intervene at that point on the high side of 3500 rpm..... it WILL go for the 6-5.... and BOOOOOOM!

NO.... WAY.... it could do that shift more than a few dozen times before you were walking....

Driving this truck is like riding in a semi with a kid trying to learn how to drive who just keeps over-revving each shift until you're totally off boost, up on the governor, the load has shifted and now he's bound and can't get it OUT of gear.... then finally does only to get into the next gear so late that he's immediately again on the gov.... bound up.... another KA...KUNG out of gear and CLAAAAAAAAASH into the next one with a huge jarring deceleration because again.... it's too late for this gear!

Difference is..... the kid LEARNS and stops over-revving and being a moron.... the 10R180 DOESN'T! In fact.... unless you clear it and disable learning, it will learn itself into the most retarded shifting imaginable. At least imaginable for someone who has driven the pos. Beforehand I wouldn't have been able to imagine a shift strategy THAT RETARDED!

Trans seems fine. Strategy is junk. I pulled everything down with HP Tuners and after looking through that abortion decided there was no saving it. You can change lockup strategy in one place, then you change the radio station and it uses a different map. You find it, then you put on the blinker and it uses another map still. Then you touch the brake pedal..... you guessed it.... abother map for that... then the inclinometer goes over xxxx degrees..... yep... another map...... turned on exhaust brake or tow/haul?..... another and another...... trans temp below xxx.... you guessed it..... another map..... to the tune of HUNDREDS of times...

It's an absolute miracle the things EVER actually MAKE a shift or that they EVER actually lock up at all! They have to make 687,362 decisions and turn 2 nuclear keys simultaneously in order to lockup.... and all that has to happen before you go 20 feet forward.... GOOD LUCK!

The 4:30 gear makes the delay problem painfully obvious. It is ALWAYS behind

Did you get the updated trans flash from ferd?

 

[Charles]

Did you get the updated trans flash from ferd?

Ford's answer was to issue a TSB for these problems and then leave the "remedy" listed as.... none.

 

[J98]

Ford's answer was to issue a TSB for these problems and then leave the "remedy" listed as.... none.

Wrong.. look up TSB 21-2420 and or 20-2375.

Try another dealer or get the thing tuned if you get pushback.

 

[Charles]

Wrong.. look up TSB 21-2420 and or 20-2375.

Try another dealer or get the thing tuned if you get pushback.

Negative, both of those were already in my phone and both of them are actual transmission issues....

The trans in my 450 has no actual problem (if it hasn't hurt itself) the TCM is commanding it to do exactly what is happening. It hangs the shifts because the TCM has all these delays built into the strategy for TCC lockup and it can't ever get itself satisfied for lockup until you've already made yourself sea-sick hanging the limiter on each gear with the TCC unlocked until about 8th gear and 70 ish mph when it FINALLY locks and GRRRRRRRR takes off!

Since it will not lock down low the entire shift strategy falls apart. 6.7 with 475hp rated and 10 gears with a 4:30 R&P means shifts necessarily have to happen very quickly but the strategy includes a lot of TIME based delays.... not rpm based or mph based.....so it times itself out and will not reliably make shifts beyond about 1/4 throttle in "normal" mode. In "tow/haul" it can't reliably make shifts even there unless you have a loaded trailer that slows everything down for the little guy. Sometimes it will just miraculously get locked up quick (usually traction control) and then boom, boom, boom, boom right through the gears and just be NORMAL!

In fact.... if you can always get into the traction control map, it will ALWAYS shift beautifully, with the TCC locked and never hit the limiter.

When it came to actual 75% or higher APP take-offs, the truck was always blazingly faster on a soaking wet road, in a downpour vs a perfectly dry, smooth road...... because in the traction control map it would immediately get lockup and then each shift was just sliiiiiightly lower.... keeping it off the limiter.

And I talked to a few different tuners. Something about it being a 2020 was a big hurdle. If it were a 2019 or earlier, tuning would have been easy.

I mean..... just something as simple as say..... don't ever downshift at 0% throttle higher than 2500rpm..... couldn't make it stick. I could get it to work 99% of the time but as soon as it felt s grade over xxxx percent.... HERE WE GO..... right back to damn near 4000rpm with both my feet off the pedals just with the damn cruise on!

I realized Ford was never going to be the answer when I saw a youtube vid where someone was running a 450 on Ford's test track fully loaded and as soon as they started downhill it started going dumb on rpm and the driver was clearly uncomfortable but the Ford engineer in the passenger's seat reassured him and was so proud of the fact that they were spinning it up around 3800rpm for engine braking..... that is a few hundred rpm above the actual redline they self-impose for that engine.

In my experience.... if you say fine.... that's what they wanted, F it.... just leave it alone and ignore the sound of a poor engine getting the wee spun out of it like some pos honda.... it would only result in an eventual reduced power, low engine oil pressure code until you cleared DTC's.

I have actually had to clear that DTC on one side of a hill quickly, before I started up the other side, because loaded, the truck would not be able to move uphill with that code set. Forscan was a requirement if you want to go downhill or touch your brakes when towing or God forbid..... engage exhaust brake or tow/haul!

Thanks so much Ford engineers that want to spin the piss out of a diesel engine on purpose.

 

[ToMang07]

The shift scheduling on the 10R180 is why my 2020 F450 on Alcoas and Kelderman mechanical self leveling rear with Carli leveled front has been sitting in front of my barn for months now since I pulled a 22 yr old truck out of the woods that can do the elementary task of shifting.

Hook up a trailer, set the cruise and hit a downhill..... get ready for some rpm..... followed by more rpm..... followed by some RPMMMMMMMMMM until it's on the high side of 3700rpm, no load on f'ing cruise control! Remember..... you have steel pistons....

God forbid you ever engage the exhaust brake or tow/haul! Get ready to blow past the rev limiter at 3100 and head right on past 3500 on your way toward 4k.

Want to go through a roundabout? Forget it.... your throttle is connected to the trans.... not the engine! After shifting from 2-4, back to 3 and back to 5 the throttle might turn back on but by then the person to your left has taken off and you stab the brakes..... F IT!

Such an engineering abortion....

Now I have to dump a truck I put time into because of it. That or gut it and put a 7.3 in it!!!

Don't think I didn't strongly consider it! EPA nutswingers would pass out

I'm extremely glad they went back to steel pistons.

And it definitely sounds like your truck is a candidate for the reflash. Mine hauls a 14k 5th wheel (F250 CCLB) with ease, I love the engine brake, I even use it in 4x4 during slippery conditions so I don't have to ride the brakes.

The Cruise can occasionally flounder in the hills/mountains, I'll give you that, but not usually spinning to many RPMs, more waits too long to shift.

 

[PDT1081]

I think people are skipping over the fact Charles has 4:30s instead of 3:55s. I bet a re-gear would help a lot of his problems, but shouldn't be necessary with basically a brand new truck.

 

[Charles]

I think people are skipping over the fact Charles has 4:30s instead of 3:55s. I bet a re-gear would help a lot of his problems, but shouldn't be necessary with basically a brand new truck.

Yes, but..... the 4:30 is actually the correct gear, the trans strategy is just poorly written and cannot keep up with reality unless you go easy on the pedal or put a lot of weight behind it, basically anything to slow down the shift frequency. That is for upshifting.... downshifting at 0% throttle is an entirely different kind of stupid.

The HP Tuners stuff just isn't showing anything for exhaust brake....or incline.... and very little help with brake applied map changes, or fluid temp vs converter lock, plus the scanner doesn't work (in HP Tuners) for the 2020 TCM, so you have no way of truly knowing what maps you are even in...

2020 Really broke a lot of tuning options.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Yes, but..... the 4:30 is actually the correct gear, the trans strategy is just poorly written and cannot keep up with reality unless you go easy on the pedal or put a lot of weight behind it, basically anything to slow down the shift frequency. That is for upshifting.... downshifting at 0% throttle is an entirely different kind of stupid.

The HP Tuners stuff just isn't showing anything for exhaust brake....or incline.... and very little help with brake applied map changes, or fluid temp vs converter lock, plus the scanner doesn't work (in HP Tuners) for the 2020 TCM, so you have no way of truly knowing what maps you are even in...

2020 Really broke a lot of tuning options.

Have you visited with Jody from DP-Tuners to see if he has anything in the works for the 2020 F450? He does tuning for the 2020 f250/f350. He also offers a transmission tune only.

 

[Charles]

Have you visited with Jody from DP-Tuners to see if he has anything in the works for the 2020 F450? He does tuning for the 2020 f250/f350. He also offers a transmission tune only.

I'll stick to selling the truck...

 

[Tiha]

Post up what you find out. I'd love to know.

I FINALLY got through to a tech guy at Baumann or USSHIFT or whatever you want to call them.

He was helpful and we brainstormed a while but he basically said it is impossible to run an E4OD and a Gear Vender with any of their controllers.

The quick shift 6 is specifically for the 6r trans.

The E4OD would use the quick 4.

We even talked about the old school baumanator that came out in 1997. I had read of a guy controlling both his E4OD and GV with it. Tech support guy at Baumann said basically he has no idea how anyone could do that. There are no extra outputs available, and really they are just software programing without any positive or negative outputs. He said their system only loads it's one shift profile into the computer basically.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I FINALLY got through to a tech guy at Baumann or USSHIFT or whatever you want to call them.

He was helpful and we brainstormed a while but he basically said it is impossible to run an E4OD and a Gear Vender with any of their controllers.

The quick shift 6 is specifically for the 6r trans.

The E4OD would use the quick 4.

We even talked about the old school baumanator that came out in 1997. I had read of a guy controlling both his E4OD and GV with it. Tech support guy at Baumann said basically he has no idea how anyone could do that. There are no extra outputs available, and really they are just software programing without any positive or negative outputs. He said their system only loads it's one shift profile into the computer basically.

Thank you! I appreciate getting back to me with the information.


That's to bad the GV can't be controlled by the quick 6. I guess it's asking alot.

I wonder how.good the quick 4 works with the E4OD and 4R100? I've been tempted to put a 4R100 in my OBS and controll it with the quick 4.

 

[Tiha]

I know a couple guys that used the Quick 4 on Gas engine broncos and they love it. Have nothing bad to say at all. Easy setup, easy tuning.

That is probably what I will do.

As far as the GV, I can grab the Vss and make a trigger. make my own little controller. I can't really think of too many scenarios where I would want it for more than coming on at 70 mph and shutting off at like 60. Then a manual switch as well. But that is always harder for other people to work on later.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

If you gonthe quick 4 route I'd like to know your thoughts on it.

 

[Tiha]

If you gonthe quick 4 route I'd like to know your thoughts on it.

Pretty sure that is what I will do. truck is buried behind my son's excursion parts right now, but I certainly hope to get it out and try this yet this summer.

Working on the GV setup I started looking at it a different way. Got forwarded to this guy,.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/142482832692

He is saying that this unit will take the AC input from the Vss and I can set the trigger point wherever I want. Like 70mph. Problem is that it will shut off at about 66mph, So I would need a second one to set where I want it to disengage. Or a line condition to change the frequency to a rate where 5% hysteresis equals approx a 20 mph split like I want.

Fun stuff either way. Excited to give it all a shot and a fairly simple way to automate it all.

 

[Charles]

PCS should run a GV no problem. The PCS just wants to know how many gears (in that case 5) and what solenoid order you want to use. I imagine a person might be able to have the PCS pop the GV on and off and split each gear automatically if they wanted. Is there a reason you aren't looking into it? Probably the best controller available for either of the transmissions you are referring to. I use them for all sorts of things. The trans, but also multiple wastegates, water injection, secondary fuel pumps, temp monitoring, datalogging. Very powerful tool. They have two calibrations switchable with an input.

 

[Tiha]

PCS should run a GV no problem. The PCS just wants to know how many gears (in that case 5) and what solenoid order you want to use. I imagine a person might be able to have the PCS pop the GV on and off and split each gear automatically if they wanted. Is there a reason you aren't looking into it? Probably the best controller available for either of the transmissions you are referring to. I use them for all sorts of things. The trans, but also multiple wastegates, water injection, secondary fuel pumps, temp monitoring, datalogging. Very powerful tool. They have two calibrations switchable with an input.

PCS is one I would still like to call but if they are like any of the other tuners they don't actually control the solenoids and do not have outputs to control solenoids or relays. They simply load their software in place of what is already in the PCM


At least that is how it was explained to me.

 

[Charles]

PCS is one I would still like to call but if they are like any of the other tuners they don't actually control the solenoids and do not have outputs to control solenoids or relays. They simply load their software in place of what is already in the PCM


At least that is how it was explained to me.

No.... it is a stand-alone trans controller. You literally tell it which outputs go to which solenoids and what order you would like to fire them in. I run my EPC valve based on MAP for instance.... not TPS. My trans is nearly always spot on with shift firmness this way. You can do just about anything practical with a PCS. I used to independently run the gate on my GT55 and the gate on the 38R with PCS PWM outputs based on two independent pressure sensors, one for each stage, while also kicking on the water injection at XX boost and kicking on the second stage water nozzle at XXX boost, while holding a manual shift controller in my right hand on a short extension harness with manual/auto toggle and shift up/shift down buttons on the little handheld remote. On my crew cab another one is currently wired to kick on my second factory fuel pump if the main pump drops below 50psi...

It has various digital and analog inputs and outputs and most certainly drives the trans solenoids, wastegate valves and relays directly. I have used them for years. The original. I have not used the newer unit. I still have two of the original units.

 

[Charles]

PCS Image

 

[6.0 Tech]

PCS is one I would still like to call but if they are like any of the other tuners they don't actually control the solenoids and do not have outputs to control solenoids or relays. They simply load their software in place of what is already in the PCM


At least that is how it was explained to me.

We run a pcs in our race truck, as we’re running a 4R behind a 6.0. It is standalone, has a ton of inputs/outputs, can switch tunes, run data logging, all sorts of fun shit. You are the tuner for it, if it doesn’t do what you told it to do, chances are you didn’t tell it correctly. Hell, we typically run second gear starts, it’s never in first, but one of our transmissions has had an issue where it blows thru second and neutrals out, so we’ve run third gear starts before. We have a burn out tune on a switch, that switches back to our normal trans tune after I put it in 4wd and flip the switch back. We’re data logging boost, back pressure, icp, fuel pressure, and all the trans stuff thru it. We still have about 5 inputs available and a whole bunch of outputs. Probably have no issues running a gear vendors off it.


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