7.3 Turbo talk

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Here is my current thought's on this. 38r drop in for a entry level. Then once you get the horsepower bug bad, why change that turbo out? As soon as you start going up in size with that single, you are going to begin having DD/towing issues. Especially if you live at altitude or tow heavy. Assuming your horsepower solution uses all the other required upgrades to get you over 500 safely, why not leave that 38r, gate the shyt out of it, put an atmosphere charger in front of it, and you don't have to worry about the spooling and high egt towing issues, because you are still using a 38r to spool, but you have the atmosphere kicking in and doing the work on top. It can be gated to suit your HP goals/abilities, then stepped up when you want to go bigger. Just look at what the 6.4 is doing. Guys are running 12's with a DD tow rig that can tow heavy with no penalties. Seems like doing the larger single and expecting to still be able to use your truck for it's original purpose is an exercise in futility. I think what Charles has been doing is a perfect example. Mike O (Blowby) is running massive injectors on a set of compounds that are jokingly referred to as towing compounds by the builder and he can pass emissions on a over 500HP tune, but layed down over 1000HP with some Nitrous, and I watched him run in the high 11's on fuel. In Denver. He does DD it, and if it had a hitch I have no doubt it would tow fine after talking to him a few times about turbos. I'm not saying his setup is typical at all, but with a bit smaller setup a guy could have a serious ground pounding truck with good DD tow manners. Another guy just did a dyno run using a stock turbo as his primary. So why not put a van housing on it with a big wastegate (lot cheaper than a turbo swap), then use money saved to buy a JB 4202 atmo and some 250/200's and own the street. The stocker turbo will be back to working at stock levels so it worrying about overboost won't be an issue. I'm seriously beginning to think using a big single on a DD is getting to be passe'.

Have you ridden in a truck with a properly set up single!? Im 100% on the other side of the fence here... I believe compounds are a thing of the past to come up with the "ultimate" daily driver/toy. Sure no single will ever produce the nice ride of compounds but there are tons of advantages and the single is slowly getting better and better. With these billet wheels and machined housings the single turbos today are almost unreal (and yes sometimes expensive also).
But you have to think about maintenance also. I mean looking at a truck with compounds it seems entirely difficult to work on, not to mention all the new places for stuff to go wrong.
If i can set up a turbo perfectly with my sticks i believe id be just as happy as if i had compounds. Especially something like a gt4294x, its tough to beat those turbos on the street

 

[Big Bore]

Have you ridden in a truck with a properly set up single!? Im 100% on the other side of the fence here... I believe compounds are a thing of the past to come up with the "ultimate" daily driver/toy. Sure no single will ever produce the nice ride of compounds but there are tons of advantages and the single is slowly getting better and better. With these billet wheels and machined housings the single turbos today are almost unreal (and yes sometimes expensive also).
But you have to think about maintenance also. I mean looking at a truck with compounds it seems entirely difficult to work on, not to mention all the new places for stuff to go wrong.
If i can set up a turbo perfectly with my sticks i believe id be just as happy as if i had compounds. Especially something like a gt4294x, its tough to beat those turbos on the street

Will you be able to hook up to a 35ft fiver and go over Eisenhower pass (11,500ft)? Have you ever towed heavy above 8000ft? With a high HP truck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower_Tunnel

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Will you be able to hook up to a 35ft fiver and go over Eisenhower pass?

I cant say i even know where thats at. But i do believe i could.

Tuning/water injection/and plenty of high pressure oil and i dont believe EGT's would be an issue to the point where it COULDNT happen. Sure occasionally it might not work perfectly if im at 8k ft, but thats a very rare deal. If your only concern is towing a 35ft travel trailer over a pass then compounds are probably your best bet.

Im just saying it seems like a properly set up single would be much more simple. Ive rode in trucks with that 42 and they run amazing, im very impressed

 

[CSIPSD]

I have no issues once moving at 8000k or higher. Once underway if I need more I downshift or kick the water on.

I would love to have a set of compounds, but the penaltys outweight the benifits on a DD work truck.

If my truck was purely a toy, I might go that route.

 

[Big Bore]

I cant say i even know where thats at. But i do believe i could.

It's an 11,500ft pass on I70 in CO. If you are having trouble at 8K, don't even think about it.

 

[DocBar]

I'm going to have to check my truck for boost leaks and/or turbo issues, but my truck was struggling it's butt off trying to get over the Organ Mountains on hwy 70 in Las Cruces. That's a 5,700' pass and I had absolute hell with it. I'm running 250/100 sticks, 38R and custom tuning with all the supporting mods. I had nothing but black smoke and high EGT's the whole way up. It's pulling worse than it ever did stock.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I have no issues once moving at 8000k or higher. Once underway if I need more I downshift or kick the water on.

I would love to have a set of compounds, but the penaltys outweight the benifits on a DD work truck.

If my truck was purely a toy, I might go that route.

THat is what im saying.

Compounds have their place but it doesnt seem possible for the daily driver who uses his truck for everything...I mean what if you need to pull the passenger valve cover, that would be like a 2 hour job!

Singles and tuning have come so far i think i dont think ill ever hit a time where ill need compounds for anything. If a 4202rx isnt enough for me or cant do what i need it to do then the truck shouldnt be a daily driver, it should be a dedicated play truck

 

[littleredstroker]

I'm going to have to check my truck for boost leaks and/or turbo issues, but my truck was struggling it's butt off trying to get over the Organ Mountains on hwy 70 in Las Cruces. That's a 5,700' pass and I had absolute hell with it. I'm running 250/100 sticks, 38R and custom tuning with all the supporting mods. I had nothing but black smoke and high EGT's the whole way up. It's pulling worse than it ever did stock.

LOL we live at higher elevations than that LOL

 

[Hotrodtractor]

OMG. You people have no idea of how compound turbo charging works. Is a properly designed setup going to add a little time to say getting under the passenger valve cover - sure is no doubt - but how often are you going under the valve covers of your daily driver tow vehicle and why? If your setting up a truck to have compounds - serviceability should be taken into account - I have looked at and worked on several compounded V8 trucks - some were a nightmare - some were OK to work on - and some... well they could go from being a single to compounds in 15 minutes while in the pits in between rounds at the sled pulling track and it only took that long because it was hot.

I would have no issues building a compound kit for a DD/ tow truck - it would include features that would make most of the service on the truck easy. In fact I have a new tow truck in my future plans - it will likely be a compound turbo'd 7.3 - I plan on putting it together with a stock bottom end, big oil, 300/200s or so, and something with at least 88mm forcing air down its throat. I expect it to respond and be maintained no differently than my current DD/ tow truck.

 

[CSIPSD]

I'm going to have to check my truck for boost leaks and/or turbo issues, but my truck was struggling it's butt off trying to get over the Organ Mountains on hwy 70 in Las Cruces. That's a 5,700' pass and I had absolute hell with it. I'm running 250/100 sticks, 38R and custom tuning with all the supporting mods. I had nothing but black smoke and high EGT's the whole way up. It's pulling worse than it ever did stock.

You should have no issues with that set up... What boost levels are you making?

 

[CSIPSD]

OMG. You people have no idea of how compound turbo charging works. Is a properly designed setup going to add a little time to say getting under the passenger valve cover - sure is no doubt - but how often are you going under the valve covers of your daily driver tow vehicle and why? If your setting up a truck to have compounds - serviceability should be taken into account - I have looked at and worked on several compounded V8 trucks - some were a nightmare - some were OK to work on - and some... well they could go from being a single to compounds in 15 minutes while in the pits in between rounds at the sled pulling track and it only took that long because it was hot.

I would have no issues building a compound kit for a DD/ tow truck - it would include features that would make most of the service on the truck easy. In fact I have a new tow truck in my future plans - it will likely be a compound turbo'd 7.3 - I plan on putting it together with a stock bottom end, big oil, 300/200s or so, and something with at least 88mm forcing air down its throat. I expect it to respond and be maintained no differently than my current DD/ tow truck.

Package and sell it then... and not a black widow type price...:doh:

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

OMG. You people have no idea of how compound turbo charging works. Is a properly designed setup going to add a little time to say getting under the passenger valve cover - sure is no doubt - but how often are you going under the valve covers of your daily driver tow vehicle and why? If your setting up a truck to have compounds - serviceability should be taken into account - I have looked at and worked on several compounded V8 trucks - some were a nightmare - some were OK to work on - and some... well they could go from being a single to compounds in 15 minutes while in the pits in between rounds at the sled pulling track and it only took that long because it was hot.

I would have no issues building a compound kit for a DD/ tow truck - it would include features that would make most of the service on the truck easy. In fact I have a new tow truck in my future plans - it will likely be a compound turbo'd 7.3 - I plan on putting it together with a stock bottom end, big oil, 300/200s or so, and something with at least 88mm forcing air down its throat. I expect it to respond and be maintained no differently than my current DD/ tow truck.

I dont think any of us were trying to discuss the technicalities of compounding or any of that. I dont know **** about any of the very serious stuff about turbos.
My points were just that if i can set up a single to work great on my truck with 500hp then what would be the point of going through the trouble of compounds? Todays wheels and housings and tuning seem to be making singles better and better than in the past. If i can put a s471 or a gt4294rx or gt4202rx on my truck and have very little lag, awesome pull up top, and EGT's that are perfectly fine i dont see the need of a second troublesome turbo. But everyones application is different!

 

[psduser1]

I'm with HRT. If your base engine is in any condition at all, how often are you going to pull the vc? Two is better than one!

 

[DocBar]

You should have no issues with that set up... What boost levels are you making?

I've hit 37psi a couple of times but usually I see mid-upper 20's getting on it with the trailer behind me. One of the biggest issues is that when the truck shifts gears, sometimes I lose all my power and have to wait for the turbo to spool back up. I have some pretty bad shifting issues as well. I'm in Venezuela at the moment, so there's not a lot I can do at the moment.

 

[DocBar]

OMG. You people have no idea of how compound turbo charging works. Is a properly designed setup going to add a little time to say getting under the passenger valve cover - sure is no doubt - but how often are you going under the valve covers of your daily driver tow vehicle and why? If your setting up a truck to have compounds - serviceability should be taken into account - I have looked at and worked on several compounded V8 trucks - some were a nightmare - some were OK to work on - and some... well they could go from being a single to compounds in 15 minutes while in the pits in between rounds at the sled pulling track and it only took that long because it was hot.

I would have no issues building a compound kit for a DD/ tow truck - it would include features that would make most of the service on the truck easy. In fact I have a new tow truck in my future plans - it will likely be a compound turbo'd 7.3 - I plan on putting it together with a stock bottom end, big oil, 300/200s or so, and something with at least 88mm forcing air down its throat. I expect it to respond and be maintained no differently than my current DD/ tow truck.

Having considered the costs of adding a 2nd turbo, I'm seriously considering a pro charger. A little over $5k and I like the look of the set up. I just wish I could ride in a truck using one before I spend the $$.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

Package and sell it then... and not a black widow type price...:doh:

I don't know what BWD charges - don't care - but for a complete setup with both turbos, plumbing, etc - setup in such a way to utilize the factory A/C, be reliable and serviceable - your roughly talking $8-9K - $3500 or so of that is just in turbos - then you have both turbo mounts, wastegate(s), plumbing that includes v-bands so you don't go blowing a boot climbing up that pass out on 70, etc. Oh and that is an 89mm atmosphere charger capable of 145+lbs/min or roughly 2100+cfms.

If I thought enough people would be interested in a setup like that - I sure would package it and sell it - but it is my experience that lots of people say they want things like this - but seldom does anyone actually pay for things like this.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I'm with HRT. If your base engine is in any condition at all, how often are you going to pull the vc? Two is better than one!

what are the advantages over a perfectly set up single with water injection?

Towing above 8k ft is one of them, i heard that already. Spooling down low im sure has to be one of them.
But if you can make a single work almost as good, why isnt that a better option?

Trying to learn here

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I dont think any of us were trying to discuss the technicalities of compounding or any of that. I dont know **** about any of the very serious stuff about turbos.
My points were just that if i can set up a single to work great on my truck with 500hp then what would be the point of going through the trouble of compounds? Todays wheels and housings and tuning seem to be making singles better and better than in the past. If i can put a s471 or a gt4294rx or gt4202rx on my truck and have very little lag, awesome pull up top, and EGT's that are perfectly fine i dont see the need of a second troublesome turbo. But everyones application is different!

Your absolutely correct - today's singles are getting better and better - but that same technology can be and has been directly applied to compound setups. In a nutshell trying to boil this down to one simple to understand word that can describe the difference between a single and compounds: Powerband. Give me a nice wide broad powerband and you will make me a happy person. It is incredibly hard if not impossible to mimic the powerband capabilities of a set of compounds in a single charger. Compounds are absolutely the PERFECT setup for towing. I installed the compounds on my dmax over 80K miles ago - it took me a couple of thousand miles to get them dialed in - but they have never been off the truck since - there is no reason you can't do that in a 7.3.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I've hit 37psi a couple of times but usually I see mid-upper 20's getting on it with the trailer behind me. One of the biggest issues is that when the truck shifts gears, sometimes I lose all my power and have to wait for the turbo to spool back up. I have some pretty bad shifting issues as well. I'm in Venezuela at the moment, so there's not a lot I can do at the moment.

ICP issues??

 

[Hotrodtractor]

what are the advantages over a perfectly set up single with water injection?

Towing above 8k ft is one of them, i heard that already. Spooling down low im sure has to be one of them.
But if you can make a single work almost as good, why isnt that a better option?

Trying to learn here

How is "almost as good" a "better option"? And I can assure you that a single is not "almost as good" as a proper set of compounds.