a different take on e fuel

[old man dave]

4 corner is better then 2.

I dont see air being an issue with a dead head.
I like the potential cooling of a regulated return

cost of the reg return setup is dependant on what you do. a reg is $150ish for a name brand

If 4 corner is better than two, why are you using a two point fuel feed?

Just where do you think captured air goes in a dead head system? Right through the injectors. But if you don't have a problem with that, after all, you claim to be an expert on everything........:hammer:

 

[MAFoElffen]

You all are funny! I'm no doctor, but there is logical arguments on both sides. This is just me thinking out loud.

4 feed fuel system:

Pro- The feeds into the head is only 3/16" through the center of each fitting. 4 inlets add more area to enter the fuel valley.You can only drill out the fittings themselves so much, so more lines in make more area to flow into. That's the saem as more lines from an HPOP, right? But to get around that you machine the heads to use fittings with a larger ID. (Drill and tap the heads) You can't do that with the heads on the truck, so people don't do that unless they're serious about that..

Con- Deadheaded (air bleeds through the injectors). If you have a regulated return, the return is before the head, so any cooling of any recirculating fuel, is nixed by the deadheaded fuel, which gets warmed up in the fuel valleys until it is used. Don't we try to get the coolest a/f mixture in a compressed charge to get more power? Because it's deadheaded and does not have circulation in the valleys, any sediment or particles cannot be carried through, away from the injectors, (which some of those particles are from,) which is another job of the recirculated return and the return screen. Deadending without a return is hard on pumps and sets up flow surges that cause their own type of flow feeding restrictions. SD's have their return in the fuel filter, but beyond that to the injectors, do have those surges in flow. Recirculation through the fuel valleys don't have those types of surging... That's the some of the flow harmonics and surging that we try to get away from with mechanical pumps right?

Seems to me that there are many serious con's... that would fight against those gains... But that would not affect accept the upper ends of both those. Maybe I'm wrong about that?

"M J"-- We are friends... <-- He has helped me more than people can imagine. I point that out to others as they only see one side of him here and do not see that side of him. I think with your new motor that you are building... Look into it yourself. Look at the valleys and fittings while it is out and you can look at those "parts" yourself. Think things through. I know you to be very intelligent and I have a very high respect for you. (Other's are not privy to that side of you...) I know you will make sound decisions for what you are doing. If you think you need more fuel flow, now would be the perfect time to drill the heads and tap them for larger ID fittings... But you know me better than anyone here. (Check your PM's from me on the other forum about mine.)

Like I said, I'm no doctor and I am just learning about squeezing more power from these motors... I'm an unknown here and like to keep it that way... I'm a nobody. It just makes sense to me. My observations are that when people want to try to pull more horse power or torque from an SD, as the horse power goes up, they spend more time and money on a regulated return after the heads... and make mods to be able to feed more fuel through those 2 fuel valleys, fed through a recirculating system. Why Ford went from that system to something deadheaded? What do I know? I'm just an OBS guy...

I just try to ask questions from injection, turbo and tuner people to make my own decisions for what I am trying to do with my own. I'm trying to learn how to tune PSD's... but I have a gas racing background with mechanical diesel experience. DIT PSD's are completely new to me. Like I said, a newby all over again.

That's just my observations. Maybe I'm wrong with all that... and that is okay. I'm still learning about this motor. It's the same motor used by International in medium duty trucks pulling 50,000 pounds right? Ford took that and drastically detuned it. But both worlds had a very narrow power band. To me, what I mentioned just sounds like common sense and good physics. But what do I know. I'm here to learn, have fun and make my truck run better.

Want to test if more feed flow might be needed? Just how much fuel do people think 450/400's use at say 5000 rpm? Someone ever sit down and do the math? If so, show me the numbers... Am I wrong that few here seem to be needing that much... I think m j is one of those few that do... But for most others, their required seems small compared to what people here are assuming, right?

I've talked with owners that went with 238/100's on healthy stock oil and stock mechanical fuel pumps and only ran low on fuel at the top end of what was actually practical for them to drive... Then they went with electrical pumps, still with their stock OBS filter and regulator. That is far below where "m j's" needs are (I know and understand that)... but I see a step there for me in my low-budget build. I am not at that extreme. Heck, I can't even decide between 238/100 or 238/200's...

I think EFuel mods are a good thing... Just my perspective and observations.

 

[ghohouston]

If 4 corner is better than two, why are you using a two point fuel feed?

Just where do you think captured air goes in a dead head system? Right through the injectors. But if you don't have a problem with that, after all, you claim to be an expert on everything........:hammer:

Dave, I still need to send your disc back to you, sorry I've had it for so long, been busy, and that project got put on the back burner. Ill try to get it back to you asap

 

[old man dave]

You all are funny! I'm no doctor, but there is logical arguments on both sides. This is just me thinking out loud.

4 feed fuel system:

Pro- The feeds into the head is only 3/16" through the center of each fitting. 4 inlets add more area to enter the fuel valley.You can only drill out the fittings themselves so much, so more lines in make more area to flow into. That's the saem as more lines from an HPOP, right? But to get around that you machine the heads to use fittings with a larger ID. (Drill and tap the heads) You can't do that with the heads on the truck, so people don't do that unless they're serious about that..

Con- Deadheaded (air bleeds through the injectors). If you have a regulated return, the return is before the head, so any cooling of any recirculating fuel, is nixed by the deadheaded fuel, which gets warmed up in the fuel valleys until it is used. Don't we try to get the coolest a/f mixture in a compressed charge to get more power? Because it's deadheaded and does not have circulation in the valleys, any sediment or particles cannot be carried through, away from the injectors, (which some of those particles are from,) which is another job of the recirculated return and the return screen. Deadending without a return is hard on pumps and sets up flow surges that cause their own type of flow feeding restrictions. SD's have their return in the fuel filter, but beyond that to the injectors, do have those surges in flow. Recirculation through the fuel valleys don't have those types of surging... That's the some of the flow harmonics and surging that we try to get away from with mechanical pumps right?

Seems to me that there are many serious con's... that would fight against those gains... But that would not affect accept the upper ends of both those. Maybe I'm wrong about that?

"M J"-- We are friends... <-- He has helped me more than people can imagine. I point that out to others as they only see one side of him here and do not see that side of him. I think with your new motor that you are building... Look into it yourself. Look at the valleys and fittings while it is out and you can look at those "parts" yourself. Think things through. I know you to be very intelligent and I have a very high respect for you. (Other's are not privy to that side of you...) I know you will make sound decisions for what you are doing. If you think you need more fuel flow, now would be the perfect time to drill the heads and tap them for larger ID fittings... But you know me better than anyone here. (Check your PM's from me on the other forum about mine.)

Like I said, I'm no doctor and I am just learning about squeezing more power from these motors... I'm an unknown here and like to keep it that way... I'm a nobody. It just makes sense to me. My observations are that when people want to try to pull more horse power or torque from an SD, as the horse power goes up, they spend more time and money on a regulated return after the heads... and make mods to be able to feed more fuel through those 2 fuel valleys, fed through a recirculating system. Why Ford went from that system to something deadheaded? What do I know? I'm just an OBS guy...

I just try to ask questions from injection, turbo and tuner people to make my own decisions for what I am trying to do with my own. I'm trying to learn how to tune PSD's... but I have a gas racing background with mechanical diesel experience. DIT PSD's are completely new to me. Like I said, a newby all over again.

That's just my observations. Maybe I'm wrong with all that... and that is okay. I'm still learning about this motor. It's the same motor used by International in medium duty trucks pulling 50,000 pounds right? Ford took that and drastically detuned it. But both worlds had a very narrow power band. To me, what I mentioned just sounds like common sense and good physics. But what do I know. I'm here to learn, have fun and make my truck run better.

Want to test if more feed flow might be needed? Just how much fuel do people think 450/400's use at say 5000 rpm? Someone ever sit down and do the math? If so, show me the numbers... Am I wrong that few here seem to be needing that much... I think m j is one of those few that do... But for most others, their required seems small compared to what people here are assuming, right?

I've talked with owners that went with 238/100's on healthy stock oil and stock mechanical fuel pumps and only ran low on fuel at the top end of what was actually practical for them to drive... Then they went with electrical pumps, still with their stock OBS filter and regulator. That is far below where "m j's" needs are (I know and understand that)... but I see a step there for me in my low-budget build. I am not at that extreme. Heck, I can't even decide between 238/100 or 238/200's...

I think EFuel mods are a good thing... Just my perspective and observations.

So, has he actually told you he has a blueprinted hot dog girdled engine? As of last month, he was still asking about sourcing girdles. In his previous sig, it listed DI fuel rail plug adaptors for fuel.

 

[m j]

If 4 corner is better than two, why are you using a two point fuel feed?

Just where do you think captured air goes in a dead head system? Right through the injectors. But if you don't have a problem with that, after all, you claim to be an expert on everything........:hammer:

how can a 2 point dead head be better then a 4 point dead head Davey?
3 cylinders dropping pressure in the rail prior to the last one getting anything

I am not using a dead head simply because I do not think it is a good system but the OP wasnt asking what I run or for the merits of a full flow return system.
Unlike you I can stay on topic.
4 corner feed is better then 2 = true statement


as for captured air, the high point in the stock system is the fuel bowl.
I havent looked too much as a stock fuel system but doesnt the fuel pass through a filter prior to getting sent to the heads?
how does air feel about being pushed through the filter element?
there are a lot of trucks out there with SD factory fuel systems

did Charles have any air issues in his 4 corner dead head feed setup?
he seemed to defend it in all the threads I read where guys were needling him about it.

 

[m j]

"M J"-- We are friends... <-- He has helped me more than people can imagine. I point that out to others as they only see one side of him here and do not see that side of him. I think with your new motor that you are building... Look into it yourself. Look at the valleys and fittings while it is out and you can look at those "parts" yourself. Think things through. I know you to be very intelligent and I have a very high respect for you. (Other's are not privy to that side of you...) I know you will make sound decisions for what you are doing. If you think you need more fuel flow, now would be the perfect time to drill the heads and tap them for larger ID fittings... But you know me better than anyone here. (Check your PM's from me on the other forum about mine.)...
I think EFuel mods are a good thing... Just my perspective and observations.

in my truck currently I feed the rails at the back of the head with DI -06AN adapters and use an aeromotive reg that gets fed excess fuel through the 1/8 npt fittings at the front on the motor .
IMO while I was in there replacing everything I wanted to remove as much restriction prior to the injectors as possible but I still do not like the 1/8npt fittings that I am returning fuel through.
IMO this is way overkill for what we need to feed but if you are in there replacing everything you may as well go overboard as the cost is not that much different.

 

[old man dave]

how can a 2 point dead head be better then a 4 point dead head Davey?
3 cylinders dropping pressure in the rail prior to the last one getting anything

I am not using a dead head simply because I do not think it is a good system but the OP wasnt asking what I run or for the merits of a full flow return system.
Unlike you I can stay on topic.
4 corner feed is better then 2 = true statement


as for captured air, the high point in the stock system is the fuel bowl.
I havent looked too much as a stock fuel system but doesnt the fuel pass through a filter prior to getting sent to the heads?
how does air feel about being pushed through the filter element?
there are a lot of trucks out there with SD factory fuel systems

did Charles have any air issues in his 4 corner dead head feed setup?
he seemed to defend it in all the threads I read where guys were needling him about it.

One is I didn't say deadhead system. Comprehension problems again.

If you are maintaining regulated pressure at the end of the head on a return system, the pressure drop through the head doesn't matter, the system is providing adequate fuel to each injector although not at the theoretical same pressure. The fuel rail gallery is bigger than 7/16", bigger than the hose fittings, it does not represent the major restriction in the fuel system.

Filters don't do much to deaerate entrained air from fuel. So air doesn't go through a filter? Then explain why switching from a dead head system to a regulated return has audible results since entrained air is no longer going through the injectors. Or using an AirDog that does deaeriate fuel,i its not because the AirDog filters it out.

And so you don't use an air filter on your intake either?

As far as a four hose system of any type compared to a two hose system, the four hose system has more skin drag than the two hose system resulting in less flow. It is always better to use a larger diameter hose than multiple hoses with the same total cross-sectional area because of this.

Using four hoses going to the normal 1/8" holes are the same crosssectional area of using two 3/8" hoses to the rear of the heads. Give me the hose setup with less internal drag.

Maybe you need to read a physics book. You can do anything you want, just don't claim science backs you up.

Charles is an extremist, doesn't mean his truck was perfectly optimized.

 

[OldschoolPSD]

Charles is an extremist, doesn't mean his truck was perfectly optimized.

Charles also never had to start a thead and ask how fuel systems work...

 

[ghohouston]

Charles also never had to start a thead and ask how fuel systems work...

Is that directed at me?

 

[OldschoolPSD]

It's about you, but not directed at you lol

 

[ghohouston]

It's about you, but not directed at you lol

This is a forum for powerstroke diesels. I asked a legitimate question, because I did not have a full understanding of the fuel systems between obs and sd 7.3's, and I now have a good understanding of them... not sure why that's a problem

 

[bruce]

4 corner feed aint a bad deal. I would do it but i'm just too lazy to source the parts and actually do it. It keeps the pressure very consistant in the head from front to rear and keeps fuel temps down by eliminating the fuel flowing through the head constantly which also helps with condensation in the tank. If Charlie and 907dave run it then it works

 

[m j]

One is I didn't say deadhead system. Comprehension problems again.

on your part YES! the fawkin thread is about a dead head style system.
the OP did not ask about a regulated return.
dont let that stop you from posting irrelevant BS

 

[old man dave]

on your part YES! the fawkin thread is about a dead head style system.
the OP did not ask about a regulated return.
dont let that stop you from posting irrelevant BS

So, I guess once again you are dodging the question yourself since you are distributing PURE BS yourself. I guess what everyone else posted is BS ,too. Why promote an inferior method? Or do you have any constructive points against what I said?

Read a physics book. I think your fuel system doesn't have a problem with small return lines or pressure drop in the head, but YOU can't figure out what the real problem is. The concept of too much pressure drop in the PSD head and too small of a return line is a contradiction. Read a physics book.

Or do I have to SPELL IT OUT for you?

 

[m j]

I didnt dodge the question, I answered it. "yes a 4 corner dead head system will work." /thread

constructive point #1- stay on topic.

as much as I dont care about you opinion on my fuel system. mine is not having any problems for you to try and solve, real or imagined.

'the concept of' connecting two completely separate posts and trying to pretend they are one concept is a huge stretch, or a serious comprehension issue looming again.
I guess it can happen when people go off topic constantly.

 

[old man dave]

I didnt dodge the question, I answered it. "yes a 4 corner dead head system will work." /thread

constructive point #1- stay on topic.

as much as I dont care about you opinion on my fuel system. mine is not having any problems for you to try and solve, real or imagined.

'the concept of' connecting two completely separate posts and trying to pretend they are one concept is a huge stretch, or a serious comprehension issue looming again.
I guess it can happen when people go off topic constantly.

Is not understanding what is said the reason you like to riducule people instead of forming an intelligent reply? I guess everyone else who replied to go with a return system is off topic, too. You like to limit discussion since you can't form an intelligent reply, so you go to ridicule. Its a continual pattern on your part. And you seem to be undereducated and underexperienced nor do you respect anyone else's opinion (not just me). You have a problem.

 

[m j]

everyone who said go with regulated return was off topic. did you read the first post?
I do not respect your opinions at all Dave. you should find someone else to converse with.
the only problem I have is not adding you to my ignore list on this forum too.

 

[old man dave]

Still can't form an intelligent reply? Not enough knowledge to refute what I said? If Im wrong, it should be easy for a guy of your "intelligence and experience" to refute what I said. With your ego, you would if you could. But you just cut and run. Can't Google everything, I guess.

Maybe you should just ignore the whole forum. It would be better for the site.

 

[m j]

LoL
there is nothing to refute. your posts are off topic and idiotic.
'4 hoses have more 'skin drag' then 2' but you fail to mention any hose sizes in relation to that statement or if the volume amount is compromised below the amount required to do the job.
four 1" lines will have more flow then two 3/8 lines but still have more 'skin drag' from the larger surface area.
all irrelevant in this discussion as the stock lines are adequate to feed the motor.
the single feed line from the tank is a 5/16 so having four lines of equal size feeding the four corners of the head are not going to be a restriction all they will be is a short cut path to feed what would otherwise be end of the line injectors.
what exactly are you trying to argue Davey?

 

[MAFoElffen]

Dave-


Talking about physics, you didn't seem to understand what I said... the fuel restriction to the heads is not the fuel valley itself... If you look back at my post, the restriction is the ID of the fittings to the heads. If you install bigger lines to those fittings, you are still going to hit those restrictions. I think the stock fitting are only 5/32" to 3/16" ID. 3/8" lines to those are going to get fuel there, but still are going to be the same flow through them. So some adding more ways in (double), would increase that flow by increasing twice the area. The only way to get past or around that is to machine the heads for bigger threaded fittings so they can have a larger ID.

You can go dual 1/2" lines to feed, but the flow is going to be restricted by whatever is the restriction...

I guess enough on that. Not getting anywhere. I think the OP got more than he asked for on his question... Right?