160/100 vs 205/30 Injector Testing

[The Brad]

I think you guys are talking me into trying a set of hybrids. I just have to decide what size. Lol

I’ll make you a deal on a slightly used set of the best injectors ever built?! :lookaround:

 

[cjfarm111]

Hahaha i think I’ll stick with FF on my next set

 

[PSD POWER007]

Hahaha i think I’ll stick with FF on my next set

Full Force most definitely gets my vote!!

 

[Swaan]

It's funny because back when I got my 175/80s PIS was the injector to get. How things change.

 

[TMCCOY]

Agree with above. When I got my 175/80 from PIS it was THE injector to get. They have performed very well overall, but can be smokey if the tuning isn't great which is easy with mail order tunes...

I'm going to change the exhaust housing from the 1.0 to the .91 and see if that helps with the initial "blow" until the turbo catches up. Doubt EGT's would change much.

 

[cjfarm111]

I do think the .91 housing will help with the Smokey bottom end. Cheaper then a set of injectors that’s for sure

 

[PSD POWER007]

It's funny because back when I got my 175/80s PIS was the injector to get. How things change.

I was in that group that fell for the “injector to get” hype.
My truck ran pretty good at the start but not long after would haze on cold starts regardless of temperature, then started a slight haze when towing. Kept the quarter panel covered in soot. They finally started passing oil through the injector internally. Using oil to the tune of about a gallon every 100-150 miles. Got crickets from POS about the issue. Finally contacted Ryan at Full Force, did some diagnostics that Ryan suggested, he said as much as he hated to tell me, I’d need new injectors. Bought new 180/80’s, installed them, and was amazed at how much better and cleaner that the truck ran. I have about 250k miles on them at this point. They are finally starting to get a little tired. That’s my POS story anyway.

 

[jbolen323]

Update : Getting ready put on a s369 on the truck at the end of this week.

Also truck has had multiple tune revisions and live tuning by a few people for the record. We are going to knock out all the major "common " turbo options and test it hard. Going to run these injectors through the summer time here in Arizona as well as I feel like that is truly the test. When its a 110+ ambient temp out and working the truck, that's when the truck is gonna hurt.

* agree on the PIS stuff, installed one set on a customer and always had ICP issues and idle qualities on a side note *


Does anyone have any special requests or things they would like to see as well from the testing we are doing at KCTurbos ?

 

[Zeb]

Update : Getting ready put on a s369 on the truck at the end of this week.

Also truck has had multiple tune revisions and live tuning by a few people for the record. We are going to knock out all the major "common " turbo options and test it hard. Going to run these injectors through the summer time here in Arizona as well as I feel like that is truly the test. When its a 110+ ambient temp out and working the truck, that's when the truck is gonna hurt.

* agree on the PIS stuff, installed one set on a customer and always had ICP issues and idle qualities on a side note *


Does anyone have any special requests or things they would like to see as well from the testing we are doing at KCTurbos ?

Are you staying with the 205/30’s for the summer, and for the upcoming turbo testing?

 

[cjfarm111]

That’s what I’m having issues with. Hazing at idle and after towing or plan driving for a while as the oil is good and warm it had a small vibration/ shimmy at idle. I have tried 4 different tuners and all seem to idle the same. When I get time I’m going to pull my injectors and send them to full force and find out what is going on

 

[KCTurbos]

Wow... did not even know anyone was commenting... I did not get any notifications until jbolen323 just posted.


Something to keep in mind as was mentioned before. Good quality vs bad quality injectors have a huge affect on how they run... which goes both ways. When someone takes a 200,000 mile old set of stock injectors and swaps them out and see better fuel mileage and cooler egts it makes you wonder whether it was the injector size or quality of the injector.


I know there are a lot of varying opinions on injectors. But I can tell you what we test and what we see from selling 1000s of turbos and 100s of injectors every year.

Smaller nozzles like 30% work better 9.9 times out of 10 times when it comes to egts, towing, starting, haze at idle, fuel mileage, etc. The ONLY time bigger nozzles outperform is at WOT on a heavy race tune. I cringe every time someone contacts us with stage 2 injectors and wanting a turbo, especially with certain tuners who will not be named. Guess who is gonna be chasing egts/smoke issues forever LOL.

I also hate it when guys hop on the forums and read about how giant nozzles are better in every way and end up with 250/200 in a tow truck that will never be raced. Then fight egts/smoke... yes that does happen.

I know some of you guys that spend countless hours live tuning your truck, running superchargers, big turbo setups, etc... all LOVE the bigger nozzles. But when you sell 1000s of turbos and 100s of injectors every year you really start to see a trend of what works better for most customers.

Not saying I hate big nozzles... but when a customer needs to choose between 30% and 200% for a stockish truck... I push them towards the smaller nozzles. It is a pendulum... as with any science going too small is going to suffer and going to big is going to suffer. At some point you are going to reach a certain efficiency and any larger/smaller will lose efficiency in that area.




With regards to hybrids having higher injection pressure... that does not work out theoretically and we actually tested them back to back earlier this year on a different truck.

Mods: KC 63/73/.84 turbo, CNC fab S2 hpop, 4 line feed kit, walbro fuel pump, BHAF air filter.

180/30 - 471hp and 1046tq. Only holds 2300 of ICP at WOT on max PW tune. Holds fine on any tune under 4.0ms
205/30 – 504hp and 1093tq. Holds a rock solid 3200psi of ICP at WOT no matter what tune is ran.

What is interesting is that that 180/30 actually spooled up the turbo faster and brought the power on sooner. That kind of makes sense because the 205/30 hybrids are going to run a lower final injection pressure… at least they will compared to the 180/30 until the 180/30 run out of oil. Once the ICP drops with the 180/30s the 205/30s do better in every way.

This is a cool link for newbies wanting to know how the ICP is converted into final injection pressure and how hybrids work.

http://www.dieselhub.com/tech/heui.html





One step further analysis for those who have ever done the math.

180/30 2300psi x 7:1 injection ratio = 16,100
205/30 3200psi x 5:1 injection ration = 16,000psi

Interesting the ICP drops on the single shots just far enough for them to equal out to about the final injection pressure as the hybrids?




One more step further... it is not all about holding ICP with Hybrids IMO... a lot of it has to do with how the fuel flows through the injectors and how long it takes to run the full stroke of a single shot A code. At some point you run out of time to stroke all the fuel out. Having a larger bore and shorter stroke makes it easier/quicker to get the fuel out.

 

[BS Hauler]

Thank you KC for testing these. I always thought I wanted to stay with the 180/30 but now I am going to go with hybrids. I think am going to stay with the 30% nozzles instead of going with the 80% overs also. I am sure my 02 has the PMR in it.

 

[The Brad]

There seems to be a huge disconnect between vendors and customers. If I had a dollar every time I hear a vendor recommend 30% nozzles, I’d be rich. If I had a dollar every time I hear someone having smoke and egt issues with 30% nozzles, I’d be twice as rich. If I had a dollar every time I hear positive feedback switching from 30% to 80% nozzles, I’d be 3x as rich.

 

[KCTurbos]

There seems to be a huge disconnect between vendors and customers. If I had a dollar every time I hear a vendor recommend 30% nozzles, I’d be rich. If I had a dollar every time I hear someone having smoke and egt issues with 30% nozzles, I’d be twice as rich. If I had a dollar every time I hear positive feedback switching from 30% to 80% nozzles, I’d be 3x as rich.

I don't know what kind of business you run or how many injectors you sell (not being rude, just did not see it in your sig)... but my experiences are not the same. I also spend a ton of talking with injector builders and tuners that sell/tune 1000s of injectors every year.

We never have issues with guys and 30% nozzle. NEVER... I can't think of one person I have ever sold 30% nozzles to that has EVER come back complaining about smoke/egts that magically got fixed with going to 80% nozzles on the same injector. Expect if you are talking about WOT power/smoke on an all out race tune.

I have never seen someone go from 180/30 to 180/100 and like them better... but have helped tons of guys go from 180/100 to 180/30 and love it.

Happens all the time with 80, 100, and 200 nozzles... especially with the stage 2 injectors... aka 160/80 through 180/100

I have also helped guys go from 250/200 back down to 238/80 and love it also.




There is a reason the manufactures are pushing 205/30 injectors (which is kind of a newer thing). Manufactures push what works, keeps customers happy, and causes the least amount of of issues. I think the disconnect that people might not see is out of the 1000s of customers some big builders have and what kind of feedback they get from customers over the years will dictate what they push and like better.

 

[KCTurbos]

We will be testing either 205/80 or 238/80 next back to back. Might even do 238/100s

I actually have 2 guys running 205/30s right now and both plan on upgrading in the next few months. We will dyno, do some towing, daily driving, etc... I will post up results when the time comes.

 

[The Brad]

I don't know what kind of business you run or how many injectors you sell (not being rude, just did not see it in your sig)... but my experiences are not the same. I also spend a ton of talking with injector builders and tuners that sell/tune 1000s of injectors every year.

We never have issues with guys and 30% nozzle. NEVER... I can't think of one person I have ever sold 30% nozzles to that has EVER come back complaining about smoke/egts that magically got fixed with going to 80% nozzles on the same injector. Expect if you are talking about WOT power/smoke on an all out race tune.

I have never seen someone go from 180/30 to 180/100 and like them better... but have helped tons of guys go from 180/100 to 180/30 and love it.

Happens all the time with 80, 100, and 200 nozzles... especially with the stage 2 injectors... aka 160/80 through 180/100

I have also helped guys go from 250/200 back down to 238/80 and love it also.




There is a reason the manufactures are pushing 205/30 injectors (which is kind of a newer thing). Manufactures push what works, keeps customers happy, and causes the least amount of of issues. I think the disconnect that people might not see is out of the 1000s of customers some big builders have and what kind of feedback they get from customers over the years will dictate what they push and like better.

My credentials are nothing more than my internet PHD, talking with dozens of other 7.3 owners over the years and owning and wrenching on my 7.3 for 19 years. I’m not calling BS on your tests, I’m just shining a light on the difference of opinions. You’ve done well showing the difference between A codes and small hybrids. I think 2 other good tests would be 30% vs. 80% 180s, and the same with 200/ 80s and 30s.

 

[cjfarm111]

I agree brad. I have ran three different size injectors in the past and all have there ups and downs. So far my least favorite has been the 175/80’s from PIS. Very very oil hungry and the more miles I put on them the worse they seem to get. I was nervous to run a 30% nozzle in fear of less horsepower and torque when towing causing longer PW leading to higher egts. But it’s looking like a hybrid with 30 or 80% nozzles might be the ticker

 

[Zeb]

I agree brad. I have ran three different size injectors in the past and all have there ups and downs. So far my least favorite has been the 175/80’s from PIS. Very very oil hungry and the more miles I put on them the worse they seem to get. I was nervous to run a 30% nozzle in fear of less horsepower and torque when towing causing longer PW leading to higher egts. But it’s looking like a hybrid with 30 or 80% nozzles might be the ticker

I pm’d you. I’d like to make you an offer on your injectors.

 

[PSD POWER007]

I’m on the fence, my FF 180/80’s have been AWESOME with my BASB. I’ve considered going a little bigger now that they have almost 250k miles on them. I tow often at around 10k lbs. Am I just splitting hairs by considering like a 205/30 or maybe a 238/30? I’d like to keep a stock pump just because I’m on the road so much.

 

[psduser1]

I don't know what kind of business you run or how many injectors you sell (not being rude, just did not see it in your sig)... but my experiences are not the same. I also spend a ton of talking with injector builders and tuners that sell/tune 1000s of injectors every year.

We never have issues with guys and 30% nozzle. NEVER... I can't think of one person I have ever sold 30% nozzles to that has EVER come back complaining about smoke/egts that magically got fixed with going to 80% nozzles on the same injector. Expect if you are talking about WOT power/smoke on an all out race tune.

I have never seen someone go from 180/30 to 180/100 and like them better... but have helped tons of guys go from 180/100 to 180/30 and love it.

Happens all the time with 80, 100, and 200 nozzles... especially with the stage 2 injectors... aka 160/80 through 180/100

I have also helped guys go from 250/200 back down to 238/80 and love it also.




There is a reason the manufactures are pushing 205/30 injectors (which is kind of a newer thing). Manufactures push what works, keeps customers happy, and causes the least amount of of issues. I think the disconnect that people might not see is out of the 1000s of customers some big builders have and what kind of feedback they get from customers over the years will dictate what they push and like better.

You are completely not wrong, lol.
The Brad is also not wrong.

The big issue is application, and customer willingness to make a given combination work, i.e. live tuning, multiple revisions, support mods, etc.
It is not as simple as "drop in x size injector' and all your problems are solved.
Theoretically, everyone should drop in 400% nozzles, and make 450 hp on a stock turbo.

That is part of the disconnect between tuners, customers, and manufacturers.

Tuners like smaller nozzles because it's easier to please 80% of the customers-bread and butter customers, if you will. Manufacturers operate on margins, so the best sellers are what they push.
The next 15% want to have better performance, and are willing to pay for the supporting stuff. Better pumps, better turbos, maybe quality rebuilds, so forth.
Then there is the 5% who want to push the envelope.

All these guys can post whatever bs they feel like on the web.

The further away from stock you move, the more attention to detail required to gain the desired result.