200% nozzle = great tow pig

[Tom S]

It is awesome to have friends.

 

[Curtis@Vision Diesel]

200% nozzles is what ive got!

Yea 320/200 if I remember correctly. I dont need that namy cc's........well thats not true! haha But what Im just looking to get at, Im still sold on a nice set of stage 2's! With 200% nozzles of course.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Yea 320/200 if I remember correctly. I dont need that namy cc's........well thats not true! haha But what Im just looking to get at, Im still sold on a nice set of stage 2's! With 200% nozzles of course.

Well bud, not to spoil the suprise but here's a little tid bit on injectors that the guys have taught me over the last couple years...

A) mine are only 250cc with 200% nozzle

B) The nozzle dictates how much fuel leaves the injector in a injectin cycle, so going with a larger cc injector does not always mean more power, you must be able to get all that fuel out and burn it first. If i remember correctly a 200% nozzle will flow enough to almost empty a 250cc injector, if not empty it completely in like 3ms i think i read at 3000psi? Someone correct me there, i feel like i messed that up.
So that being said, if you went with a stage 2. Stage 2= 160cc with some sort of aftermarket nozzle, typically. You would not only be running the injector dry on every cycle, but it would almost be a waste. a 100% nozzle is more than enough with only 160cc's of fuel to play with. Plus its been my experience that you want some fuel left inside the injector afterwards, so if you want a 200% nozzle id go 250cc at the smallest. If you want a stage 2 stick with a 100% nozzle.
And honestly for your truck with that t500, you dont want a 200% nozzle. The larger the nozzle, the more oil pressure typically needed. a 238/100 hybrid or a 160/100 stage 2 would be awesome for you, come to think of it an AC with a 100% nozzle might even be great....seems like lots of people love them these days

 

[Big Bore]

Croak, according to my information there is 3.5ms available at 3500rpm's and 2.9 at 4000rpm's. According to the chart below from Nate, that allows for 317cc at 3ms and 365cc at 3.5ms. I think it's safe to say you can empty a 300cc injector with 200% nozzles at 4000rpm, definitely at 3500. A conservative HP per cc is 2.4. Thats 720HP. Some folks are getting more HP per cc, some of that may be injector work like fuel side mods etc, some of that may be head work and cam, or it may be a combo. I'm placing my bets on head work, Matt's stage 2, 300/200's and compounds for 700HP.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Croak, according to my information there is 3.5ms available at 3500rpm's and 2.9 at 4000rpm's. According to the chart below from Nate, that allows for 317cc at 3ms and 365cc at 3.5ms. I think it's safe to say you can empty a 300cc injector with 200% nozzles at 4000rpm, definitely at 3500. A conservative HP per cc is 2.4. Thats 720HP. Some folks are getting more HP per cc, some of that may be injector work like fuel side mods etc, some of that may be head work and cam, or it may be a combo. I'm placing my bets on head work, Matt's stage 2, 300/200's and compounds for 700HP.

Your probably right, i didnt have exact numbers.

I was just trying to show that a 160cc injector wont ever ever ever need a 200% nozzle

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

By the way Bore, that chart you posted must have some fuel side mods done. Thats quite a bit of CC's if you compare to a regular 200% nozzle'd hybrid

 

[estrada5.9]

Croak, according to my information there is 3.5ms available at 3500rpm's and 2.9 at 4000rpm's. According to the chart below from Nate, that allows for 317cc at 3ms and 365cc at 3.5ms. I think it's safe to say you can empty a 300cc injector with 200% nozzles at 4000rpm, definitely at 3500. A conservative HP per cc is 2.4. Thats 720HP. Some folks are getting more HP per cc, some of that may be injector work like fuel side mods etc, some of that may be head work and cam, or it may be a combo. I'm placing my bets on head work, Matt's stage 2, 300/200's and compounds for 700HP.

Nice chart.

Is there a place where a guy could find something like that and plug in his own numbers?

 

[Big Bore]

By the way Bore, that chart you posted must have some fuel side mods done. Thats quite a bit of CC's if you compare to a regular 200% nozzle'd hybrid

True. Would be nice to see some flow charts from other injector manufacturers. Heres one with significantly less flow at a given PW and psi than Nates injector.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

True. Would be nice to see some flow charts from other injector manufacturers. Heres one with significantly less flow at a given PW and psi than Nates injector.

I will have a flow sheet for my next set of injectors. They ship out tomorrow so ill compare when they get here, should be similar to Nates

 

[Curtis@Vision Diesel]

Well bud, not to spoil the suprise but here's a little tid bit on injectors that the guys have taught me over the last couple years...

A) mine are only 250cc with 200% nozzle

B) The nozzle dictates how much fuel leaves the injector in a injectin cycle, so going with a larger cc injector does not always mean more power, you must be able to get all that fuel out and burn it first. If i remember correctly a 200% nozzle will flow enough to almost empty a 250cc injector, if not empty it completely in like 3ms i think i read at 3000psi? Someone correct me there, i feel like i messed that up.
So that being said, if you went with a stage 2. Stage 2= 160cc with some sort of aftermarket nozzle, typically. You would not only be running the injector dry on every cycle, but it would almost be a waste. a 100% nozzle is more than enough with only 160cc's of fuel to play with. Plus its been my experience that you want some fuel left inside the injector afterwards, so if you want a 200% nozzle id go 250cc at the smallest. If you want a stage 2 stick with a 100% nozzle.
And honestly for your truck with that t500, you dont want a 200% nozzle. The larger the nozzle, the more oil pressure typically needed. a 238/100 hybrid or a 160/100 stage 2 would be awesome for you, come to think of it an AC with a 100% nozzle might even be great....seems like lots of people love them these days

Appreciate that my friend. Still learning all this stuff!! I just assumed you could put 200% on any aftermarket injector as long as you had the mods to support them.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Appreciate that my friend. Still learning all this stuff!! I just assumed you could put 200% on any aftermarket injector as long as you had the mods to support them.

Yeah there is a lot to figure out, and it takes time. Thats why im on here so much, i love learning from all that guys that know BOAT LOADS more than i do. Im a rookie on this site hah.

Basically just think about it this way. Basically a good rule of thumb is the 200% nozzle is too much until youve got around 250cc of fuel, there are definitely exceptions but thats a good starting point. Otherwise a 100% nozzle is what you want (dont go any smaller, no reason to with good tuning).

160cc/100% nozzle and we can get you to 400hp with a well matched turbo and some good tuning.

 

[SDS97_7.3]

I may be wrong but I think I remember Dave at Swamps saying he has 200/200's.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I may be wrong but I think I remember Dave at Swamps saying he has 200/200's.

He sure does!! Thats why i said there are exceptions.

Im sure even Dave would say he can easily empty that injector no problem, and given more cc's it would benefit him. He probably had a certain application in mind when he built them

 

[SDS97_7.3]

It would be interesting to see some flow numbers for the smaller cc injectors with larger nozzles though. And to hear from some of the tuners who may have dealt with them before as Im sure there are a few sets around.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

It would be interesting to see some flow numbers for the smaller cc injectors with larger nozzles though. And to hear from some of the tuners who may have dealt with them before as Im sure there are a few sets around.

Im guessing that trim the PW way way way back to keep it from emptying completely

 

[Big Bore]

I would run a 200% nozzle on my 175's if I was planning to stay that small. A smaller injection window is always better for egt's.

 

[Tree Trimmer]

I would run a 200% nozzle on my 175's if I was planning to stay that small. A smaller injection window is always better for egt's.

is why dave has small cc's and large nozzles. he's probably still using stock amounts of fuel per injection event, he's just doin it so fast, that egt's probably went through the floor.

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

Lower EGT's is a very good thought, didnt really think about that one

 

[Big Bore]

is why dave has small cc's and large nozzles. he's probably still using stock amounts of fuel per injection event, he's just doin it so fast, that egt's probably went through the floor.

And using less oil than a stock injector.

 

[TARM]

Croak, according to my information there is 3.5ms available at 3500rpm's and 2.9 at 4000rpm's. According to the chart below from Nate, that allows for 317cc at 3ms and 365cc at 3.5ms. I think it's safe to say you can empty a 300cc injector with 200% nozzles at 4000rpm, definitely at 3500. A conservative HP per cc is 2.4. Thats 720HP. Some folks are getting more HP per cc, some of that may be injector work like fuel side mods etc, some of that may be head work and cam, or it may be a combo. I'm placing my bets on head work, Matt's stage 2, 300/200's and compounds for 700HP.

I think in actuality there is less real PW window available then those numbers Big Bore. Closer to .5 -1ms less.

There is a fixed mechanical limit as far as degrees of crank angle period as is or should be well known and understood by now. We of course have a certain window of time to hit that window which decreases with increases in RPMs. The time window also has to be adjusted for the fixed .6-.7 ms of injector injection delay of actual SOI advance. Its also best to look at this is degrees of crank angle as we are trying to hit piston bowl. The delay is why commanded SOI degrees of advance has to increase with RPMS. Factor in a limit of say 28 degrees plus adj for injector delay and anything more you spraying outside the bowl producing that lovely tell tale star pattern on the piston face. Factor that if you like to keep your stock rods inside versus poking out of the block 24-26 degrees, from what I can figure would be a safe limit, without factoring in the injector delay, so real actual SOI. From what I have seen from feedback spraying after TDC might get you some additional power but basically it gives you mostly smoke and heat. Take 24 BTDC for SOI then factor in advance compensation for the injectors .6-.7 ms of delay. Say this is for 4K RPM. Even add in say 6 degrees of window for after TDC of injection event to include the .2 or so delay in cut off of the injection. Now factor that for time based on whatever RPM point. What you end up with @ 4K is basically 1 ms for every 24 degrees of crank angle. Then add in that .6-.7 ms for injector delay which amounts to about 16 degrees of advance @ 4K rpms. So a total of 40 degrees of BTDC plus a small amount of after TDC spray and or stop delay as insurance of covering the complete window so say 44-45 degrees. Now thats being a bit of conservative on hitting the bowl so you could likely add another 2-4 degrees to the actual SOI. The`limit with delay factored in is likely 44 degrees BTDC SOI (1.83ms@4k rpm)then add back in the small amount ATDC for a total PW of 48 degrees of PW or 2ms. Those are what would be seen as on an oscilloscope.

IMO the above is why once you get to wanting to make real new power with a reasonably sized nozzle and injector setup and you want to gauge/compare injector flow performance from flow bench testing sheets you look at the 2 ms or at most a 2.5ms windows. That covers the 3500-4000 rpm range. To gain more useable power we need to be increasing the injection volume in the 2ms and under window and of actual injection from start to end of actual spray 1ms to 1.5ms window range. I am of course open to the possibility that my numbers and or computations are wrong but with out tons of hands on experience this is what I have come up with.











Formulas to compute number of crank degrees there are per millisecond @ any specific rpm:

[(Revolution Per Minute / 60)/1000 = Revolutions Per Millisecond]* 360 degrees = Crank Degrees per MS @ RPM

[(4000 RPMS/60)/1000 = 0.06666 RevPerMS]* 360 degrees = 24 degrees of crank per 1 ms