200% nozzle = great tow pig

[woodduck97]

Never had any indication when tearing my engine down. Walls always look new. Besides, diesel is lubricating, we have keystone rings, blah, blah, blah.

If people were going to kill the cylinders they would have done it running 466 and 530 nozzles years ago.

OK thanks.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I bet AA code Injectors, With 200% nozzles, would be easyer to tune at a idle, then the hybrids!!!

And you might have less smoke troubles at a idle..

 

[Gearhead]

I bet AA code Injectors, With 200% nozzles, would be easyer to tune at a idle, then the hybrids!!!

And you might have less smoke troubles at a idle..

This is a bad idea.... the idle issue would be worse and it would make less power even if both injectors were 160cc.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

This is a bad idea.... the idle issue would be worse and it would make less power even if both injectors were 160cc.

Thanks for Telling me that.. Can you explain to me why it would be worse?? I dont think I quit follow you.. The Idle that is..

I guess my reasoning was with a AA code you have a 6.0mm P&B verses the 7.1 P&B on a hybrid. So I would think the idle could be controled better in AA code then the hybrid because the AA code would put out less fuel, At the same PW, And the AA code would keep the injection pressure up a little better..

And what do you mean by... "it would make less power even if both injectors were 160cc" So what you are saying is a 1600 hybrid, will make more power then a 160cc AA code????


I must be missing somthing. Could you please fill me in.. THANKS!!!!

 

[Powerstroke Racer]

Big nozzles and DD/towing is so 6 years agooke:

 

[DP-Tuner]

Thanks for Telling me that.. Can you explain to me why it would be worse?? I dont think I quit follow you.. The Idle that is..

I guess my reasoning was with a AA code you have a 6.0mm P&B verses the 7.1 P&B on a hybrid. So I would think the idle could be controled better in AA code then the hybrid because the AA code would put out less fuel, At the same PW, And the AA code would keep the injection pressure up a little better..

And what do you mean by... "it would make less power even if both injectors were 160cc" So what you are saying is a 1600 hybrid, will make more power then a 160cc AA code????



I must be missing somthing. Could you please fill me in.. THANKS!!!!

The idle fueling and overall fueling would just need to be changed for the hybrids. Put a chip in a hybrid injector truck that is tuned for 160cc AC codes and see how pitiful it runs. The 200cc hybrids require way more fuel and ICP just to get the truck to move. I tested this on 3 different trucks and was amazed at how the truck responded.

Jody

 

[Gearhead]

Thanks for Telling me that.. Can you explain to me why it would be worse?? I dont think I quit follow you.. The Idle that is..

I guess my reasoning was with a AA code you have a 6.0mm P&B verses the 7.1 P&B on a hybrid. So I would think the idle could be controled better in AA code then the hybrid because the AA code would put out less fuel, At the same PW, And the AA code would keep the injection pressure up a little better..

And what do you mean by... "it would make less power even if both injectors were 160cc" So what you are saying is a 1600 hybrid, will make more power then a 160cc AA code????


I must be missing somthing. Could you please fill me in.. THANKS!!!!

The hybrid flows less fuel at low demands and more at higher demands when compared to an A code. There is a "softer" injection event with the larger nozzles and I like it better for tuning idle because the minimum fuel that can be injected is smaller than an A code. And yes a hybrid can put down 160cc of fuel faster than an A code everything being equal. The oil side of the injector is simply too restrictive to support a 200% nozzle to its full capability on an A code. More fuel per time means there is actually more injection pressure than the multiplier ratio would lead you to believe because of the lack of oil flow through the injector.

 

[Charles]

The idle fueling and overall fueling would just need to be changed for the hybrids. Put a chip in a hybrid injector truck that is tuned for 160cc AC codes and see how pitiful it runs. The 200cc hybrids require way more fuel and ICP just to get the truck to move. I tested this on 3 different trucks and was amazed at how the truck responded.

Jody

That makes no sense. If it's an unmodified AC, then we're talking stock 7 hole nozzle?

You pair a program written to make a set of AC's fiesty with a set of hybrid injectors running 200% nozzles and things are going to be very, very snappy, smokey and touchy.

Just the opposite of what you seem to have found. In fact, while many programs for an AC might be running 3 or more ms of pulsewidth (sometimes double that or more) a mere 1.5ms or so on a 200% nozzled hybrid would be leaving the AC injectored truck in the dust.

A hybrid with a 200% nozzle as is being described in this thread takes far less pw than an AC injector to perform the same tasks. Part throttle and off-idle fuel would have to be pulled back substantially to keep the truck from bucking and jumping with throttle application if nothing else were changed but a swap from an AC to a 200% nozzled hybrid. The cruise control would probably be rendered useless until such a change was made.


Now if they were both running identical nozzles, then it might make more sense. But who in the hell runs a stock 7 holer on a hybrid? There would be no point. The whole point of the hybrid is to sway the oil flow rates toward a more manageable value for a given fuel flow rate. With a stock 7 holer an A-code P&B is not over-taxing the poppet valve's ability to flow rotella anyway.

One thing that should be said, is that the flow vs pressure graph for an A-code with a competitively sized nozzle (200+) is very flat. They flow very little additional fuel with additional ICP. It's because as the ICP rises, it only worsens the intensifier pistons rate of drop, further amplifying the deficiency of the poppet valve to fill the void it's creating because of the rapid drop needed to keep up with the nozzle flow while using such a tiny plunger diameter.

The hybrid on the other hand will increase flow much more sharply with increases in ICP. This is because as the ICP is increased the increase to the rate of drop for the intensifier piston is still in a range where the poppet valve can better keep up with the additional demand. So you get greater changes to injection quantity for a given increase in ICP when compared to an A-code.

This is one reason why people that lower ICP down low might find an equally nozzled hybrid to be a bit lax at these points in comparison. It's because down there, the A-code is finally dropping to an injection rate point where it's not just horrendously overruning the poppet valve, so it offsets the drop in ICP with a rise in internal efficiency. Basically negating the ICP drop, making the truck react much, much less to ICP changes.

The hybrid on the other hand actually drops a lot of fuel for a given drop in ICP, because it wasn't nearly as bad off to begin with. So when you drop the pressure it actually starts dropping flow right along with it.


If you graphed the injection quantity vs ICP at any given pw for an A-code vs a Hybrid, both running say a 200% nozzle on each, the plot for the A-code would be very shallow in comparison.

That is the only thing that might account for your findings. But that would require the hybrid to have a tiny nozzle on it in order to show that compared to an AC with a stock nozzle.

 

[Charles]

The hybrid flows less fuel at low demands and more at higher demands when compared to an A code. There is a "softer" injection event with the larger nozzles and I like it better for tuning idle because the minimum fuel that can be injected is smaller than an A code. And yes a hybrid can put down 160cc of fuel faster than an A code everything being equal. The oil side of the injector is simply too restrictive to support a 200% nozzle to its full capability on an A code. More fuel per time means there is actually more injection pressure than the multiplier ratio would lead you to believe because of the lack of oil flow through the injector.

Your first sentence summarizes the theme of my last post. Exactly right. An A has much less change in injection rate vs change in ICP when compared to a hybrid. And that is much more pronounced as nozzle size is increased for each.

 

[CurtisF]

Just to add an update to this thread....

The tune I used to tow up over those mountain passes finally made some dyno pulls today. Did 3 pulls in that tune, and it averaged 310hp. So about the power level I was expecting. The guy at the shop pulled a saved file from a guy who made runs on a stock injectored truck with the banks kit on the highest setting. Made the exact same power.

But I bet my EGT's were cooler......

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I would love to run in the 300 to 350 RWHP Range for towing. With EGT maxing out at 1200-1250. AND with very little to no smoke..

I bet it feels Really good pulling a load with that 310 tune Pocket. Good job. What kind of fuel MPG do you get with that Single tune you have??? Towing that is.

 

[CurtisF]

I would love to run in the 300 to 350 RWHP Range for towing. With EGT maxing out at 1200-1250. AND with very little to no smoke..

I bet it feels Really good pulling a load with that 310 tune Pocket. Good job. What kind of fuel MPG do you get with that Single tune you have??? Towing that is.

Kinda varies... I keep putting my foot in it testing it out rather than trying for mileage. Best I got so far towing is 14 mpg's, which is about the same as my best towing with stock injectors. Overall mileage right now seems to be about the same as when I had stock sticks too, about 16 mpg's mix city/highway.

 

[TARM]

If you can keep stock MPG and more than double the power thats not exactly a failure LOL

 

[SkySki Jason]

I would love to run in the 300 to 350 RWHP Range for towing. With EGT maxing out at 1200-1250. AND with very little to no smoke..

Isn't that what AC codes and 38R should be doing ~350HP (in 'tow tune')? EGT's not an issue for me (F350 in sig) at just over 20k lbs GCVW, even at well over 5000ft asl and there is zero smoke in the tow tunes... :toast:

By comparison, I only made 287hp with the Excursion in 60tow.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Isn't that what AC codes and 38R should be doing ~350HP (in 'tow tune')? EGT's not an issue for me (F350 in sig) at just over 20k lbs GCVW, even at well over 5000ft asl and there is zero smoke in the tow tunes... :toast:

By comparison, I only made 287hp with the Excursion in 60tow.

I do not think you will be putting out 350 HP in your tow tune. If you were it would be very Smokey. In order to make 350 HP with 160CC with stock nozzles. They would need to be in the range of 3.5 to 4 ms of pw. That right there would make EGTs high and for a smoky tune. Besides 350 is about MAX of what you can get out of the AC injectors any how. If you can pull what you say you are pulling WITHOUT EGT trouble then there is no Way you are running 350 in your tow tune..

I could be wrong. But that is how I think it would be.

 

[SkySki Jason]

I do not think you will be putting out 350 HP in your tow tune. If you were it would be very Smokey. In order to make 350 HP with 160CC with stock nozzles. They would need to be in the range of 3.5 to 4 ms of pw. That right there would make EGTs high and for a smoky tune. Besides 350 is about MAX of what you can get out of the AC injectors any how. If you can pull what you say you are pulling WITHOUT EGT trouble then there is no Way you are running 350 in your tow tune..

I could be wrong. But that is how I think it would be.

My Excursion just did 324hp with stock injectors... I thought Stage 1's plus 38R were good for closer to 400HP 'maxed out'?? Not looking for bragging rights, I don't care if it makes 400hp or not - the fact is that is one solid tow rig. The tow tunes I'm running now do not smoke AT ALL and I have to lug it (6spd) to make it smoke even in '140' tune...

 

[Charles]

My Excursion just did 324hp with stock injectors... I thought Stage 1's plus 38R were good for closer to 400HP 'maxed out'?? Not looking for bragging rights, I don't care if it makes 400hp or not - the fact is that is one solid tow rig. The tow tunes I'm running now do not smoke AT ALL and I have to lug it (6spd) to make it smoke even in '140' tune...

You will not even TOUCH 300rwhp sub 1200 degrees sustained with a stock nozzle. But thanks for playing.

It would be hilarious to see you and pocket each hooked to the same load take off up a hill with a 1200 degree hard limit and watch him pull length after length after length while you sit and feather the pedal to keep under 1200 and he's just flat-footed leaving you behind.

Truth is.... his tow program probably pulls more power than your hottest program on the same dyno..


A ~.006" 7 holer is simply incapable of what this thread is about. And it's not like it's even close.


But.... glad you like the way your truck runs. Sounds like it makes you happy.

 

[TARM]

This 342 HP Excursion with stock injectors is this also with a stock turbo as well?

 

[Chvyrkr]

I do not think you will be putting out 350 HP in your tow tune. If you were it would be very Smokey. In order to make 350 HP with 160CC with stock nozzles. They would need to be in the range of 3.5 to 4 ms of pw. That right there would make EGTs high and for a smoky tune. Besides 350 is about MAX of what you can get out of the AC injectors any how. If you can pull what you say you are pulling WITHOUT EGT trouble then there is no Way you are running 350 in your tow tune..

I could be wrong. But that is how I think it would be.

75 MPH on a grade. Runs about 900* flat and level.

Did this at the same speeds too.

 

[SkySki Jason]

This 342 HP Excursion with stock injectors is this also with a stock turbo as well?

No, its 324hp - but it does have a van turbo. Lol! (stocker broke)

You will not even TOUCH 300rwhp sub 1200 degrees sustained with a stock nozzle. But thanks for playing.

I have towed my rock crawler - ~7000lbs including trailer, extra fuel and camping gear thru the Appalachian Mtns in that tune and struggled to get it up to 1200*, driving like I STOLE IT. I wanted to see how far I could push it before EGT's and trans temps were an issue - they never were. THAT was with the stock turbo...

I do know full well that would never happen (towing in 100hp tune) where Pocket lives, with loooooong, steep grades and roads that go over 12k ft - but below 5000ft it was not a problem. I travel all over the country for work, towing a 5ver or TT to live in. If ya like, I'll pick you up next time I pass thru your neck of the woods and put my truck where my mouth is. I'm not here to brag or make friends by having a 'special' stock truck - I'll leave that to the idiots who claim they get 25mpg with a chip and an exhaust system. :blah: I will say the tunes I have now are pretty good, since I watched similar trucks with 'live tuning' go over the rollers and make less HP (and lots of smoke, lol).

But.... glad you like the way your truck runs. Sounds like it makes you happy.

The only reason I mentioned my 'stock' truck, was PSCowboy said he would love 300hp in a tow tune - and I didn't think I was far from that (287 'stock' in X's 60tow tune - and I would expect a bit more in F350 with fresh longblock, AC's and 38R). I will be building my Excursion this winter and would like to see 500-550hp...

Also, I have a 'tow rig' that has AC codes and a 38R. It works fine, but I want more from the Excursion's build and thats why I'm even following along about the 200% nozzles!! I'm starting to believe these big nozzles are what I'm looking for, but still having trouble believing they can be 'smoke free' for normal driving and towing. Looking forward to seeing Vanderchevy's truck again now that he has the GTX installed and gets some tweaking done to his tunes!!