600% nozzles???

[ja_cain]

It would be interesting to see actual fuel flow data for individual injection events over time. Does it approach a step function like I suspect piezo might or is it more of a sine wave.

Anyone do macro high speed video or photography to get an idea of fuel atomization? I do this at work all the time in order to watch fiber formation on our spin packs. All it takes is a flash that you can control the pw, a dark room and a camera you can stop the aperture down and control the when the shutter opens and closes. The velocities of the fuel droplets might be much faster than a normal flash can freeze. They make spark gap flashes that have higher output and pw a 10th or even a 100th of what I can achieve.

Cool discussion.

 

[elrodalexander73]

I think it has alot to do with pop off pressure, once the fuel overcomes the fuel needle return spring its under alot of pressure, and once the orfices become exposed the first real batch of fuel is injected, in my opinion that PRESSURE loss is what is causing the HPOP oil drop off, once the orfices become so large with a smaller volume of fuel the oil cannot possibly keep up, because at that point the plunger falls so rapidly into the barrel under hydraulic pressure it causes a rapid pressure drop too quickly for the ICP to interpret. Its like when you first intially pull the trigger on a garden hose, the first split second is water that will travel very far, but once the pressure drop occurs the water returns to lower pressure stream.... SOOOO if we up the volume to a point where we are keeping the volume consistent with our fuel flow we may be able to cure this problem.. I'm probably wrong but who knows, and who's to say if we up'd the fuel pressure to say 80psi and tried that, I mean were in a boat where P'pump is the only real good counter part to making our old school platform competitive, I just wish the darn front covers weren't so darn expensive and time consuming to produce.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

We've ran 100psi 50 psi, all kinds. I don't think your quite understanding how many years this has been beat against a wall by people with flow benches that do this every day. People that know more about these than you or me. I've built them, I've flowed them. I understand enough the understand that moving to separate fluid bodies at high speed just doesn't work well enough to produce the results we need within the parameters they are limited by.

Long and short, there has been tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars spent over the years trying to make it happen. If it's was very remotely possible it would have been done. Now even if it does become possible the market for big high hp 7.3's is so small that I don't think it would ever pay off.




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[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

It's not in the nozzle btw, we can flow all kinds of fuel through the nozzle. The same way 6.0 and 6.4 nozzles operate. We can flow 600 cc out of a 6.4 nozzle no problem because we have an endless head supply of constant 25-27kpsi of fuel in a rail waiting for the piezo to open and allow fuel through it. You can flow all the fuel you want through a nozzle, but if you can't pressurize the fuel and keep it readily available when commanded the nozzle is useless.


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[elrodalexander73]

I'm curious to see what HRT brings to the table, I'm on the hunt for a good E9 mack pump to make what I want work, I will be impressed though if he makes big power though. This system is such a hard system to build real big power with, and having the pressure drop over an injection event is what plagues it like you said, mind if I ask how many people have dropped alot of coin on a set of real parts, kinda like CDS did when they released billet pumps years ago and they were real expensive... Still are too. I just wonder how many injector builders have machined custom armetures, intensifier pistons, stuff like HRT is doing ya know. I know a good 14mm P7100 from CDS is super bucks, something closer to 8k and they offer pumps larger than that if I recall, and thats just the pump, not the lines, not the injectors, or anything else. Hell Jeremy Walkers big bad 3406b 4" single runs a CDS billet pump, had a chance to see it in person, makes big power numbers and pulls with the supers all day long. The kinda coin and development that has went into the P'pumps with custom plungers, quickrate cams, lazer cut delivery valves, ect all came to the cummins engines through years of big time tractor pullers all the way back to the 80s spending bookoo bucks on big dollar stuff, were talking 30+ years of development here, and millions of dollars. I don't think the HEUI injector will see that kind of investment but thought is what if some truly brilliant people and a large sum of r&d money were thrown at them with a top notch machine facility. I mean this what the NTPA tractor pullers are doing with large amounts of Sponsor money to win.. As you can see common rail is not found on any big time tractor yet, just the billet inline pump design. Just my two cents on what may or may not be left for the future.

 

[Magnum PD]

Fear of nozzles staying open for common rail?

 

[PDT1081]

I'm curious to see what HRT brings to the table, I'm on the hunt for a good E9 mack pump to make what I want work, I will be impressed though if he makes big power though. This system is such a hard system to build real big power with, and having the pressure drop over an injection event is what plagues it like you said, mind if I ask how many people have dropped alot of coin on a set of real parts, kinda like CDS did when they released billet pumps years ago and they were real expensive... Still are too. I just wonder how many injector builders have machined custom armetures, intensifier pistons, stuff like HRT is doing ya know. I know a good 14mm P7100 from CDS is super bucks, something closer to 8k and they offer pumps larger than that if I recall, and thats just the pump, not the lines, not the injectors, or anything else. Hell Jeremy Walkers big bad 3406b 4" single runs a CDS billet pump, had a chance to see it in person, makes big power numbers and pulls with the supers all day long. The kinda coin and development that has went into the P'pumps with custom plungers, quickrate cams, lazer cut delivery valves, ect all came to the cummins engines through years of big time tractor pullers all the way back to the 80s spending bookoo bucks on big dollar stuff, were talking 30+ years of development here, and millions of dollars. I don't think the HEUI injector will see that kind of investment but thought is what if some truly brilliant people and a large sum of r&d money were thrown at them with a top notch machine facility. I mean this what the NTPA tractor pullers are doing with large amounts of Sponsor money to win.. As you can see common rail is not found on any big time tractor yet, just the billet inline pump design. Just my two cents on what may or may not be left for the future.

There's been more money thrown at these injectors in the last 15 years than you can imagine.

As for the bolded part, electronic fuel systems are not allowed in the NTPA, outside of the diesel 4wd class. Mechanical injection is the most reliable way to make power. You won't see the big NTPA players and sponsors throwing money at the system.

 

[elrodalexander73]

Morgan is right in the end I believe, no matter what we do with them, nothing will outflow the big P-pump or even common rail, guess I'll keep scouring boneyards for a usable core for a solid 2.6 engine. An 84 F350 with a Period Correct P-pump would be pretty cool I think..

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Fear of nozzles staying open for common rail?

The common rails are not really prevalent in motors that large and definitely don't have the performance parts for them.

And they have no really way of limiting them.


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[Mr.BigOil]

I hope hrts injectors work.. But the 650s I ran looked kick ass on the flow bench also.. Delivered a lot of fuel. Just flat out didnt work.

I have a set of 600/400's......but as my Tuner told me, "what's the point, my 300/400's can already push a fully built engine to its limit".

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I have a set of 600/400's......but as my Tuner told me, "what's the point, my 300/400's can already push a fully built engine to its limit".

Must not be too built then.


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[ghohouston]

Must not be too built then.


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Exactly what I thought! Lol

 

[Mr.BigOil]

Must not be too built then.


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Um..... Wide Open Performance fully built. There engine, assembled in my shop.

 

[bruce]

With your tuner I'm sure 300/400's do push the limits, hell maybe even 160/100's

 

[2000wa250]

Only way I could see this working would be separate feeds to each injector with check valves in line for both oil and fuel. Some kind of manifold for the high pressure oil with 8 lines feeding the individual injectors. Same thing with the fuel side. Would take some serious r&d to find best routing, as well as size the lines to provide adequate volume to allow pressures to stay relatively consistent between individual injection events. Doesn't even begin to touch the machine work that would be needed to make it work. Talking custom head work, not to mention that's 14 more places for leaks on just the oil side, not to mention 16 on the fuel side.

All of this just to get around the parasitic draw of injection events. After that were talking hundreds of hours of tuning to get it all working together, and you're still left with a situation where you may not be able to refill injectors in time. In my head it seems like the issue becomes worse and worse as run time extends. First shot could be 100%, unless you get perfect refill with time to spare, every shot afterwards is going to have diminishing returns. Of course this is theoretical and assuming high revs.

To my understanding, one of the major issues with our system is trying to refill injectors out of a shared rail that is only running 65-80 psi. Trying to refill multiple injectors while other ones are currently firing puts added strain on the system.

Of course none of this addresses just how the hell you would be able to plumb everything in a way that worked, was easy (relatively speaking) to work on, and could hold pressure.

I would assume that by the time all of the above was completed, the cost would be way above that of a p pump, if not just in materials then in labor as well as r&d. Even assuming it was cost effective, to find investment capital for the r&d to make it all work would be a challenge to say the least with the limited market.

 

[02BigD]

I have a set of 600/400's......but as my Tuner told me, "what's the point, my 300/400's can already push a fully built engine to its limit".

That's an interesting statement by your tuner, I mean ALL those competition trucks running 455/400's and 400/400's are just plum crazy you reckon? Amazing how they are keeping them engines together, let alone the P-pump loons.

Must not be too built then.

Clearly depends on what his definition of "built" is.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Um..... Wide Open Performance fully built. There engine, assembled in my shop.

All I'm saying is that a built 7.3 by most standards should hold 1000+. And your not going to get that with the injectors you stated.


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[Magnum PD]

All we need is a 300hp shot of nitrous.

 

[Mr.BigOil]

All I'm saying is that a built 7.3 by most standards should hold 1000+. And your not going to get that with the injectors you stated.


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Well, with enough air......or Nitrious......, 1000 can be reached with the injectors I'm using.

FWIW, my "Tuner" was the first to reach 700hp on fuel only back in 06 was it? With tiny 248cc/100% B codes.

My 97 is setup exactly the same as WOP old race truck....., except for my gear ratio and turbo configuration......4:10's and larger chargers.

 

[Mr.BigOil]

Only way I could see this working would be separate feeds to each injector with check valves in line for both oil and fuel. Some kind of manifold for the high pressure oil with 8 lines feeding the individual injectors. Same thing with the fuel side. Would take some serious r&d to find best routing, as well as size the lines to provide adequate volume to allow pressures to stay relatively consistent between individual injection events. Doesn't even begin to touch the machine work that would be needed to make it work. Talking custom head work, not to mention that's 14 more places for leaks on just the oil side, not to mention 16 on the fuel side.

All of this just to get around the parasitic draw of injection events. After that were talking hundreds of hours of tuning to get it all working together, and you're still left with a situation where you may not be able to refill injectors in time. In my head it seems like the issue becomes worse and worse as run time extends. First shot could be 100%, unless you get perfect refill with time to spare, every shot afterwards is going to have diminishing returns. Of course this is theoretical and assuming high revs.

To my understanding, one of the major issues with our system is trying to refill injectors out of a shared rail that is only running 65-80 psi. Trying to refill multiple injectors while other ones are currently firing puts added strain on the system.

Of course none of this addresses just how the hell you would be able to plumb everything in a way that worked, was easy (relatively speaking) to work on, and could hold pressure.

I would assume that by the time all of the above was completed, the cost would be way above that of a p pump, if not just in materials then in labor as well as r&d. Even assuming it was cost effective, to find investment capital for the r&d to make it all work would be a challenge to say the least with the limited market.

Just get old, like me.....and buy a 2015 6.7.....:toast: