Another T4 thread

[The Brad]

Well I'm not sure what happened in my case, but I've spent the last 3 years on and off trying to figure out why my truck towed better with stock injectors, tuning and modded stock turbo. Boost leak, exhaust leak, different tuning, checked compression, bought a WW2 (that $ would've been better used by wiping my ass), I checked everything. When I pulled the 38r off, there wasn't a trace of soot anywhere, up pipes, collector or manifolds. I considered re-gearing and /or changing nozzles.

I understand that that the 38r has served the masses well, that's why I bought it, but it didn't work for me, enough so that I spent $2300 and am glad I did. This thread isn't meant to be an anti 38r thread. It's pretty funny that it's become an argument about which is better, the SXE or 38r. If the 38r is faultless, then who in their right mind would bother to R&D a drop in alternative (KC38r), 13 years since the last 7.3 rolled off of the production line?

As far as pulling fuel? I can do that with my right foot, or just click down to the next lower HP tune. The only result is the speedo slowly dropping until I'm back under the turbo, then drop to 2nd gear and hold 45-50mph at 3000rpm for the next 5 miles, no thanks!
And to be clear, my biggest issue was not being able to hold the same speed up the same grade, with the same load, without hazing out the road and cooking my pyro. I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.

 

[lincolnlocker]

I think its funny how there is how many years of threads/posts on how many forums of people running anything from stock to 200% hyrbids to B codes with a 38R and if it had good tuning the only real complaint about the turbo is that a good number had a pronounced whistle.

I keep seeing this statement about a turbo that moves more air and why it works better? Seriously !?! the turbo has a custom wheel that moves more air is going to clear up more fuel. If you are running heavier fuel and you change to a turbo that moves more air its going to run cleaner and lower egts. You also could just adjust the tune and pull some fuel out.

One thing about eh 38R is none of the turbos anyone is mentioning has a track record of being beat on terrible and living long lives like the 38R,.

Guess what any size injector from stock up can be run with a 38R. If you can make a injector idle then you can fuel it low enough for even a stock turbo. Yes you have to have the oil to support it duh Is it a big waste? Absolutely.

200% works fine with a 38R as does a stock even split shot injector. If you are having issues other than wanting more power ie more air needed; then it s tuning issue or something else. I am willing to bet there are literally thousands that have run 38R on 7.3s over the years.

I am in no way saying there are not turbos that can spool up faster and move more air but that does not make the 38R anything less than its always been nor does it make it bad. By that kind of logical you are all running POS trucks engines trans you name it as there are way way better setups these days with CR and 7 speed auto etc.

After being gone for a while its so funny to watch how there always need to be a new cool thing to go on about and the way to make the point is to trash whatever was the old cool thing.

If you are having issues with a 38R cleaning up 80% hybrids there is something wrong somewhere else. Boost leak, tuning etc. If all that needs to be done to fix the issue is a turbo that moves more air the tuning was off as the only thing that was changed was more air was added, You can do the same to clean it up from the other side...trimming back fuel where its needed. You can alway trim fuel back especially with nozzles as small as 80%.

People need to take some time and go back to the even 8 or so years and start reading forward from there and see how many people were using 38R for everything with no issues. Towing heavy whatever. If you are running some aftermarket wheel then I have no comment but stock wheel there is just way way to much evidence over many years you would have to turn a blind eye to.

AMEN!!!

As far as pulling fuel? I can do that with my right foot, or just click down to the next lower HP tune. The only result is the speedo slowly dropping until I'm back under the turbo, then drop to 2nd gear and hold 45-50mph at 3000rpm for the next 5 miles, no thanks!
And to be clear, my biggest issue was not being able to hold the same speed up the same grade, with the same load, without hazing out the road and cooking my pyro. I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.

that is what I never understood about your setup.. I dont get it.. there had to have been something wrong... period.. my dually is 470 hp with those measly 170/100s(results not typical) and nobody knows why but I can haul anything on a gooseneck wot to speed and not break 1300° in the hottest tune it has..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TARM]

Well I'm not sure what happened in my case, but I've spent the last 3 years on and off trying to figure out why my truck towed better with stock injectors, tuning and modded stock turbo. Boost leak, exhaust leak, different tuning, checked compression, bought a WW2 (that $ would've been better used by wiping my ass), I checked everything. When I pulled the 38r off, there wasn't a trace of soot anywhere, up pipes, collector or manifolds. I considered re-gearing and /or changing nozzles.

I understand that that the 38r has served the masses well, that's why I bought it, but it didn't work for me, enough so that I spent $2300 and am glad I did. This thread isn't meant to be an anti 38r thread. It's pretty funny that it's become an argument about which is better, the SXE or 38r. If the 38r is faultless, then who in their right mind would bother to R&D a drop in alternative (KC38r), 13 years since the last 7.3 rolled off of the production line?

As far as pulling fuel? I can do that with my right foot, or just click down to the next lower HP tune. The only result is the speedo slowly dropping until I'm back under the turbo, then drop to 2nd gear and hold 45-50mph at 3000rpm for the next 5 miles, no thanks!
And to be clear, my biggest issue was not being able to hold the same speed up the same grade, with the same load, without hazing out the road and cooking my pyro. I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.

I understand and I hope you did not take my comments as to insinuate I was calling you a lair. Not my intention what so ever. Just that something was up.

BTW pulling fuel out as I meant it is not the same thing as just letting off the throttle a bit. There are ICP ramp up actual pressure etc. With hybrids it directly effects not only fuel quantity but quality. When you look at hybrids because of the effect the lower hydrualic ratio has makes them more configurable in terms of tuning but that also means more complex. Nothing that has not been well figured out by the top tuners and many that tune for themselves just that you can effect fueling more with hybrids in tuning than say A or B codes in that order. So it could be a +or - depending on what your tuning is like. Then you have the turbine side of things such as the housing design and ratio.

You will, nor do I think you could ever find, a post by me or anyone that understands even the basics of this stuff that the 38R is without flaw. Far from it One thing I am not is a fanboy of any person, shop, or product. In fact, I have to always be careful as my past professions have me seeing the faults and weakness in most things first and foremost vs seeing all the positives so I have to be careful to take the time to balance things objectively.

If the 38R was perfect that means no room for reasonable improvement without seriously effecting other critical areas to include production costs. Most anything you get that is not customized is made to be a broad compromise the 38r is no different. I did get to speak to one of the garrett turbo design techs on time for a bit. He was going into wheel tech most of which was over my head but he was clear they as a general rule garrett leaves a good 15% of air flow potential off there wheels to keep durability at OEM levels. He basically said you could take any of thier say wheels and machine out a good hunk of material away and get a nice amount of air flow increase but with that you lose durability. I think we see that when you look over a longer period at the various turbo lines. The 38R is never going to be the top dog for its size in air flow but its a good compromise turbo for good perf for its size and frankly better that OEM ( in the case of comparing it to stock turbo) in terms of durability.

Even take the GTX line like my gtx4294r. It was close to as good as you could get for its size when it first came out as it at some good tech built into it. Now people have taken it and buy customizing getting even more out of them. Are they lowering durability? May be/ most likely but then their goals and what the level of durability they need are different than garretts.

The one are I think many people leave off because its a PITA costs $$n and they feel does not directly effect power/perf is a perf wastegate setup. Setting one of proper size for the turbo using a spring weights with ref pressure from boost and drive to hold a certain pressure differential IMO has many positives not to mention increasing turbo life. It can significantly help in keeping the turbo in its perf / efficiency window.

What is important here is you have a good running setup now for you. Thats always a win.

The ONLY reason I injected myself into the whole 38R thing is I got the impression it turned into a lets **** on the 38R to help elevate the new cool kid ( turbo) on the block. Not that the new turbo is not everything its said to be ( I can not comment as I have not personally used it or been in a truck with it) just that it being great does not make the 38R a POS. And that is what I felt the tone of the thread started to take on. IMO that givens new people a incorrect impression for the reality of it.

I am glad you got your situation squared away. It sucks to spend all this money and then not have it working properly and driving it day and day out. It puts a bad taste in your mouth.

 

[TyCorr]

I liken these threads to atheism. Atheism doesnt exist without basing their point off of Christianity. Albeit different in that guys in here have been on both sides. But it has to be anchored by something else sucking lol.

That was my only beef. People read this shti and take it as gospel. Three people that are forum members pm'd me about the topic. I said the same thing I did in this thread. There isn't an injector in anybodies signature to be doggin this turbo out. Too much pw or shti icp values vus tuning. Im gonna stab at too much pw for the icp. But thats just a guess from driving something tuned that way. Hot, doggy, etc.

 

[The Brad]

Tarm, well said, not much I can argue there.

Ty, I'm willing to concede that tuning (from 2 different tuners) could be, combined with the WW2, the cause of my hight EGTs. I posted a pic towards the beginning of this thread showing a sustained 1200* pull up a grade loaded in drive. ICP =2341 PW=2.4 Rpm=2356. I have no clue wether that's good or not. I'm all for finding out why the 38r didn't work for me, and why the SXE fixed it, with the same crap tuning. You can argue that the 38r has worked for many, but I'm not the only one who has seen a big improvement by switching.

If someone asks my opinion on a budget build, I say go with the 38r, but if they had the money, the T4 route and pick your size is a better bet.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Tarm, well said, not much I can argue there.

Ty, I'm willing to concede that tuning (from 2 different tuners) could be, combined with the WW2, the cause of my hight EGTs. I posted a pic towards the beginning of this thread showing a sustained 1200* pull up a grade loaded in drive. ICP =2341 PW=2.4 Rpm=2356. I have no clue wether that's good or not. I'm all for finding out why the 38r didn't work for me, and why the SXE fixed it, with the same crap tuning. You can argue that the 38r has worked for many, but I'm not the only one who has seen a big improvement by switching.

If someone asks my opinion on a budget build, I say go with the 38r, but if they had the money, the T4 route and pick your size is a better bet.

did you ever get it live tuned before the sxe? my dually was a major pita and wouldn't take tuning changes.. I said f-it and drove to beans and had Johnathan live tune it.. it wasn't until then that it runs the way it does now...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[superpsd]

What was your ICP on a WOT test?

 

[Z_racing14]

Matt live tuned mine with the 38r. Also tried Jonathan tunes and two different injector builders. I'm still saying is the best you've ever experienced is only the best you've ever drove. Until one of the 38r flag wavers hops in a sxe equipped truck or tries one on their own trucks I'm not putting much stake in it. Been there tried that with 3 different sized injectors. Now whether Matt's cam is the problem with my 38r experience or ported heads I cant say but all I know is they both get along with the sxe.

 

[The Brad]

did you ever get it live tuned before the sxe? my dually was a major pita and wouldn't take tuning changes.. I said f-it and drove to beans and had Johnathan live tune it.. it wasn't until then that it runs the way it does now...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

All tuning was done before the SXE. Wot ICP was a hair over 3000 at 42%

 

[TARM]

Matt live tuned mine with the 38r. Also tried Jonathan tunes and two different injector builders. I'm still saying is the best you've ever experienced is only the best you've ever drove. Until one of the 38r flag wavers hops in a sxe equipped truck or tries one on their own trucks I'm not putting much stake in it. Been there tried that with 3 different sized injectors. Now whether Matt's cam is the problem with my 38r experience or ported heads I cant say but all I know is they both get along with the sxe.

Where do you see the "flag wavers" saying that the 38R is better than SXE? I know I never did and I do not see any comments like" 38R is the end all be all of that size turbo" Do you? If so that is ignorant as no one turbo can be all things.

So other than just trying to instigate things by calling people "flag wavers" just because they report they have had positive experience using the 38R are you adding anything constructive to this thread with that comment??

So they have to try out the SXE to know that the 38R has worked for them? So do you have to try out every size injector to know the ones you have work for you?? Or for that matter every option in a area to know if something is working well or not?

As I have said I have never tried a SXE and I know for a FACT the 38r has been a nice balanced turbo. Its middle of the road. I have been in more than a few trucks running them as well as my own years ago. And while I have not had the pleasure of testing the SXE I have had the pleasure of sampling a few other turbos over the last couple decades or there abouts.


Your turbo fixes your issue and is running flawless for you great. The 38r in your setup did not work for you and the SXE did WONDERFUL. I wish you could have avoided all the trial and error before you got a well balanced setup. It sucks when things are not running right and you have to spend money and hours of frustration. BTDT. With that said how exactly does that negate, what, almost 10 yrs of people having reported very positive success with the 38R in countless various setups?

The 7.3 has been around longer than some of the people posting have been alive and I am willing to bet way longer than the majority of people posting have had drivers licenses.

 

[superpsd]

All tuning was done before the SXE. Wot ICP was a hair over 3000 at 42%

Nothing wrong with those numbers.

 

[hucorey]

Where do you see the "flag wavers" saying that the 38R is better than SXE? I know I never did and I do not see any comments like" 38R is the end all be all of that size turbo" Do you? If so that is ignorant as no one turbo can be all things.

So other than just trying to instigate things by calling people "flag wavers" just because they report they have had positive experience using the 38R are you adding anything constructive to this thread with that comment??

So they have to try out the SXE to know that the 38R has worked for them? So do you have to try out every size injector to know the ones you have work for you?? Or for that matter every option in a area to know if something is working well or not?

As I have said I have never tried a SXE and I know for a FACT the 38r has been a nice balanced turbo. Its middle of the road. I have been in more than a few trucks running them as well as my own years ago. And while I have not had the pleasure of testing the SXE I have had the pleasure of sampling a few other turbos over the last couple decades or there abouts.


Your turbo fixes your issue and is running flawless for you great. The 38r in your setup did not work for you and the SXE did WONDERFUL. I wish you could have avoided all the trial and error before you got a well balanced setup. It sucks when things are not running right and you have to spend money and hours of frustration. BTDT. With that said how exactly does that negate, what, almost 10 yrs of people having reported very positive success with the 38R in countless various setups?

The 7.3 has been around longer than some of the people posting have been alive and I am willing to bet way longer than the majority of people posting have had drivers licenses.

This^^^^.

Nobody questions either setup in a negative way. The point is, is it worth it to spend the extra $1600 or so just for a set of pipes, when tuning or a slight change in driving habits can fix the issue over just a couple 100* in EGT's.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[The Brad]

Where do you see the "flag wavers" saying that the 38R is better than SXE? I know I never did and I do not see any comments like" 38R is the end all be all of that size turbo" Do you? If so that is ignorant as no one turbo can be all things.

So other than just trying to instigate things by calling people "flag wavers" just because they report they have had positive experience using the 38R are you adding anything constructive to this thread with that comment??

So they have to try out the SXE to know that the 38R has worked for them? So do you have to try out every size injector to know the ones you have work for you?? Or for that matter every option in a area to know if something is working well or not?

As I have said I have never tried a SXE and I know for a FACT the 38r has been a nice balanced turbo. Its middle of the road. I have been in more than a few trucks running them as well as my own years ago. And while I have not had the pleasure of testing the SXE I have had the pleasure of sampling a few other turbos over the last couple decades or there abouts.


Your turbo fixes your issue and is running flawless for you great. The 38r in your setup did not work for you and the SXE did WONDERFUL. I wish you could have avoided all the trial and error before you got a well balanced setup. It sucks when things are not running right and you have to spend money and hours of frustration. BTDT. With that said how exactly does that negate, what, almost 10 yrs of people having reported very positive success with the 38R in countless various setups?

The 7.3 has been around longer than some of the people posting have been alive and I am willing to bet way longer than the majority of people posting have had drivers licenses.

...There isn't an injector in anybodies signature to be doggin this turbo out.

...Either theres some godawful tuners out there or people arent installing drop ins correctly and setting them up.

...And if you ran some 80 or 100 over nozzled shti sticks and had smoke problems you wither cant drive, cant bolt parts on your truck, or a combination. Ive seen a few injector builders names in this thread that would need a 400cc hybrid to ovefuel a 38r

This look a little bit like flag waving, and there's hundreds more posts around the internet extolling the infallibility of the 38r. As soon as someone starts talking about a better turbo the flag waving comes in the form of defending the 38r to the point of discounting someone's ability to wrench, drive or an attack on their age/knowledge/experience. I'm 43 and built my 1st 454 at age 11 with my dad and have built countless engines, both 2 and 4 strokes since then.

I count at least 7 different posters on this thread that have gone the T4 route, and a few of us did so after having the 38r. Do we all not know how to wrench and drive? Do all of our trucks have some obscure mechanical issues?

The bottom line in my case, is that the 364.5sxe outperforms the 38r on the bottom end, too end, and everywhere in between. It's not a magical turbo that is masking shti tuning or driving. It just works, and yes I am flag waving and if someone comes on here saying how their having problems with a properly sized SXE, then I'm gonna question their set up, but if someone comes on and says there's a new turbo that outperforms the SXE, I'm gonna be interested as opposed to questioning why they would try it.

 

[The Brad]

This^^^^.

Nobody questions either setup in a negative way. The point is, is it worth it to spend the extra $1600 or so just for a set of pipes, when tuning or a slight change in driving habits can fix the issue over just a couple 100* in EGT's.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Then why bother with the KC38r?

 

[hucorey]

I mentioned before in this thread. It dropped my BP:Boost ratio to nearly dead on 1:1. EGT's went down slightly too.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[The Brad]

I mentioned before in this thread. It dropped my BP:Boost ratio to nearly dead on 1:1. EGT's went down slightly too.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Exactly, it is worth it! Had I seen as much feedback on the KC38R as I saw on the SXEs, I'd of gone that route, but there not enough of them out there yet.

 

[hucorey]

If I were going bigger on injectors, T4 mount for sure, as it well proven there are no drop in chargers to handle above 250/100's. Not yet anyway .

There are around 200 or so KC's out there. But that's nothing compared to the Garrett. But then again, KC isn't a fortune 500 company to have the money for advertising as they do.

Same goes for BW, as both make 10,000 turbos a day.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[lincolnlocker]

well, since the 38r has a stock size turbine wheel and pitch then I would hope to god that the sxe, being different in both housing would make for a better turbo.. if not then it would just be dumb to spend that money..


for whatever reasons you have, whether it be it wasn't producing the horse power you thought it should or not, live tuning should be done and can be done to make everything worm the way it was designed. not more.. what I believe that is going on is that it wasn't being tuned to the 38r but tuned for the injectors and not the turbo/injector combination..

I am willing to bet that when I step up to 300/200s and keep the 38r, it can still be tuned properly for the combo.. would a different turbo be better.. *** yes there are lots of better options.. but I can't swap turbos unless I go to a custom 2.5 turbo for the class I run cuz it isn't a drop in charger.. ill add a gate to it first before I switch to the expensive t4 2.5 charger..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[Countrycar]

I'm another one here that is currently having issues with my 38r, egt's and smoke. Prior to the build I have now, I was running 238/80's with this very same 38r I still have. I ran that combination for the past 11-12 years and for the most part it worked pretty good. With the engine build I currently run, it's just not cutting it. I've had my setup live tuned as well, and nothing, no fix, same issues. After pressurizing my system, I found I had acouple of leaks 1 at the map line ends and 1 where the boost gauge ties into at the Y pipe. I fixed those issues. I hoped/Prayed that this would take care of my issues and I wouldn't have to go out and spend money on another Turbo just yet. I only have about 10K on this engine so I'm not in a hurry to go out and buy another Turbo, or the Turbo that's going to maximize my build just yet, but this is the plan in the near future. The only thing that I haven't tried with this turbo/38r is to put the stock wheel back on it because I don't have the stock wheel. The Moron that I had do the replacement in Texas, didn't give the original wheel back to me, and as so much time has passed I don't think I can get it back now. In my opinion, going back to original wheel will not make a difference anyhow, but yes if I had it, I would put it back on just to try and see if it would make a difference. I have the 6X6 on it now, not the 11 blade. I did have the 11 blade before the 6X6 and what a POS that thing was! So, I've basically wasted $ on 2 wheels at this point that I could have used for the next Turbo upgrade. Oh well, lessoned learned HUH? At this point I plan on going with the new KCturbo pending reviews and so forth. Bottom line is that for me the 38r is not/will not do what I want, nor will it maximize my build. My decision comes from information and research done here as well as talking to and picking guys brains like Matt/GH, Matt/Irate, Dennis/Strictly Diesel, Charlie Fish/KCturbos and guys that have had, and done both 38r to one or the other conversions. Works for me. :swordfight: You have my word, when I do this Turbo change out, I will report back with my findings. If I'm able, I will give some data as well.
On Edit: Not trying to start an argument on here either. If your happy with the 38r, then you should continue to run it. I'm stating fact's and evidence from my own research, on why I've chosen to do what I feel is the right choice for me in order to get my truck to perform the way I need it too. Our info here is what helps others to do the same, make informed decisions. It's why we need these conversations to happen. Thank you to everyone here that has contributed to this thread.

 

[TyCorr]

I'm another one here that is currently having issues with my 38r, egt's and smoke. Prior to the build I have now, I was running 238/80's with this very same 38r I still have. I ran that combination for the past 11-12 years and for the most part it worked pretty good. With the engine build I currently run, it's just not cutting it. I've had my setup live tuned as well, and nothing, no fix, same issues. After pressurizing my system, I found I had acouple of leaks 1 at the map line ends and 1 where the boost gauge ties into at the Y pipe. I fixed those issues. I hoped/Prayed that this would take care of my issues and I wouldn't have to go out and spend money on another Turbo just yet. I only have about 10K on this engine so I'm not in a hurry to go out and buy another Turbo, or the Turbo that's going to maximize my build just yet, but this is the plan in the near future. The only thing that I haven't tried with this turbo/38r is to put the stock wheel back on it because I don't have the stock wheel. The Moron that I had do the replacement in Texas, didn't give the original wheel back to me, and as so much time has passed I don't think I can get it back now. In my opinion, going back to original wheel will not make a difference anyhow, but yes if I had it, I would put it back on just to try and see if it would make a difference. I have the 6X6 on it now, not the 11 blade. I did have the 11 blade before the 6X6 and what a POS that thing was! So, I've basically wasted $ on 2 wheels at this point that I could have used for the next Turbo upgrade. Oh well, lessoned learned HUH? At this point I plan on going with the new KCturbo pending reviews and so forth. Bottom line is that for me the 38r is not/will not do what I want, nor will it maximize my build. My decision comes from information and research done here as well as talking to and picking guys brains like Matt/GH, Matt/Irate, Dennis/Strictly Diesel, Charlie Fish/KCturbos and guys that have had, and done both 38r to one or the other conversions. Works for me. :swordfight: You have my word, when I do this Turbo change out, I will report back with my findings. If I'm able, I will give some data as well.
On Edit: Not trying to start an argument on here either. If your happy with the 38r, then you should continue to run it. I'm stating fact's and evidence from my own research, on why I've chosen to do what I feel is the right choice for me in order to get my truck to perform the way I need it too. Our info here is what helps others to do the same, make informed decisions. It's why we need these conversations to happen. Thank you to everyone here that has contributed to this thread.

You have 50cc more fuel than I do. Tuning should be the same as you tune for the nozzle unless you are running an oddly misatched capacity for the nozzle and want to hold it open longer. Which you arent.

I know that cam can effect things but you wouldnt yhink in such a negative way.

Im not calling you a liar but the tuners you mentioned not being able to pull pw back to about 2.4 ms and get things clean and powerful worries me about the tunes they are selling.

Ive got not so great tunes, the worst wheel there is, and my egts are fine. Cool you could say for the amount of fuel.

No flag waving, no bias. Other than if a 38r can run clear and perfectly clean on an otherwise stock truck there's nothing in the realm of possibility preventing it from doing the same on any other truck.

Since we are mainly fielding complaints on towing egts, does anyone know what they are producing power wise towing? Im not attempting to seek a safe hp range for towing with a 38r. Quite the opposite. Im more interested in nozzle to hp and resultant heat.