Another T4 thread

[superpsd]

For some that don't want to swap to a T4 but are not happy with the higher backpressure of a 38R may take a look at the KC38R as it has a larger 76/70 turbine wheel... Likely while they say the KC38R sees a lower boost to backpressure ratio. Also as was mentioned above advancement of technology has led to better wheel profiles like on the SXE lineup.

 

[ja_cain]

For some that don't want to swap to a T4 but are not happy with the higher backpressure of a 38R may take a look at the KC38R as it has a larger 76/70 turbine wheel... Likely while they say the KC38R sees a lower boost to backpressure ratio. Also as was mentioned above advancement of technology has led to better wheel profiles like on the SXE lineup.

I can't wait to see what the those guys do with a reverse rotation version of the sxe turbos. It might be a huge game changer. This platform needs something like that. Similar to what Nelson racing has done with their mirror image turbos on the LS platform.

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[lincolnlocker]

For some that don't want to swap to a T4 but are not happy with the higher backpressure of a 38R may take a look at the KC38R as it has a larger 76/70 turbine wheel... Likely while they say the KC38R sees a lower boost to backpressure ratio. Also as was mentioned above advancement of technology has led to better wheel profiles like on the SXE lineup.

yeah, its a van turbo turbine size..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TARM]

Gosh guys its sooo simple.

Look turbos are going to be better than the 38R and I would hope so. But there is a difference in calling one turbo superior to another and calling one turbo a POS and the other one GOds own breath. That is ALL I am trying to get across.

You do not have to **** kick a one poruct just to make the other product better than it. THey can both be very good but one can be better. How hard is this to understand.

Why did I give a SH!T to even post in one of "these" types of threads? Most people on here that know me know I do not partake in pissing matches. The issue here is people that have no idea are going to read this and think damn I will not touch a 38R they can not handle even 30% injectors and are always hot and smokey.

No one is saying that the people on here which is what 2-3 that had real issues and they saw what they saw. Well at least I am not. But no one with even a sliver of common sense can look at 10 yrs of outstanding feedback from hundreds on these forums and then say the 38R is bad or a POS. Sorry if a person believes that then there is no trying to reason with that person at all.

But at the same time this does not mean that the SXE or whatever it is not superior to the 38R when it comes to air flow or turbine back pressure whatever.

Think about guys that had issues. How is it that all these other people did not see anything like what you have had happen with basically ever size injector as that has been made?

What you guys do not seem to get is its 100% entirely possible to make a change that fixes an issue yet that peice that was changes was not actually what was the problem or what could have been changed and it not been fixed. Further that it might have been a specific turbo unit not the whole damn line. Mistakes in product runs happen.

Now I am not saying any of this is what happened but you can not deny all the people that have had great success with the 38R just because you did not and the SXE fixed the "symptoms? of your problem.

FACTs:

People have run the 38R with stock thru 400% and b code and never had issues when properly tuned with egts or excessive smoke during low load. How do you explain that fi the 38R is so bad?

You do realize that you can pull fuel so far back you can stall the engine in park right? SO how exactly can you not pull enough fuel back if the hpop etc is all working correctly and trans is shifting right to prevent hazing when cruising or at lowish load? If it can be done with 200% and stock turbo how do you think it can not be done with a turbo that moves more air.

AGain so no one things I am calling them a lair. I fully beleive you had these issue and when you change the turbos they went away. I am just saying a properly functioning 38R does not have these issues if everything else is right. SO maybe it was that turbo. Maybe something in connection with it. Maybe it was something else that when adding more air and faster spool up took care of it. Whatever who knows. Your probelms have been fixed/

Can we not all be happy your issues where fixed with the swap?

Two things are true:

38R has served many many people very well and is one of the most durable turbos out there. IT has run well with all sorts of injector setups.

There are turbos even in the same basic size that can out flow the 38R on both ends. These turbos make great additions to a setup.

IF this directly above is all that was said I doubt anyone would have given it a second thought.

But when you start claiming numerous negative things about a piece that has been around as long as the 38R and so many people have run them without issue all because your single sample size or a couple had issues people are not going to let that fly. Becaue they KNOW FOR A FACT its not true about the 38R as a whole.

Lets face it you guys have only seen the issue with your turbo and in your setup. So excactly how does that match up statistically with hundreds if not thousands of others that never had these issues with many going well over 100K of use?

SO lets put this to bed.

There are turbos that flow better than the 38R but the 38R has a very long and good rack record but it did not work well for everyone. A few did seem to have issues.

Hows that? Everyone happy now. No more pissing in the pot for this thread??

Now I am going back to the business of enjoying my gtx42 LOL

 

[Jomax]

AMEN!!!



that is what I never understood about your setup.. I dont get it.. there had to have been something wrong... period.. my dually is 470 hp with those measly 170/100s(results not typical) and nobody knows why but I can haul anything on a gooseneck wot to speed and not break 1300° in the hottest tune it has..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

Your motor is fresh. Everyone having issues, probably has 200k plus and who knows how tired the motor is.


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[lincolnlocker]

Your motor is fresh. Everyone having issues, probably has 200k plus and who knows how tired the motor is.


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I have over 100k on that setup... not even talking about now with a fresh motor build..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[mikeeg02]

TARM, I think maybe some of that the people what we have said had come across wrong. MOST of the people who went to the sxe, came from a 38R. And MOST people out there, with an upgraded turbo (whether because of failure or wanted to upgrade) have a 38R. So most of our information is using the 38R as our "reference". And when the change (and for most of us the ONLY change, no tuning or other changes) was going to the T4/sxe the difference has been astronomical, and basically in every category, aside from the only one we can't test immediately....... longevity. I also believe most of the people who have switched generally are ecstatic about the towing performance compared to the 38R, and as I believe you and Ty, have suggested pulling fuel to match the 38R, now we don't have to, we have more towing/loaded HP because of this turbos ability to provide good usable air where we need it.

It's not really so much a sh!t on the 38R thread, as much as its a "look at the improvements over the 38R we have found with this new charger. Because almost everyone who has switched, had a 38R (though some modded) and so many people out there do have them. And if you're looking for a little more, there are better options out there now.

 

[TARM]

TARM, I think maybe some of that the people what we have said had come across wrong. MOST of the people who went to the sxe, came from a 38R. And MOST people out there, with an upgraded turbo (whether because of failure or wanted to upgrade) have a 38R. So most of our information is using the 38R as our "reference". And when the change (and for most of us the ONLY change, no tuning or other changes) was going to the T4/sxe the difference has been astronomical, and basically in every category, aside from the only one we can't test immediately....... longevity. I also believe most of the people who have switched generally are ecstatic about the towing performance compared to the 38R, and as I believe you and Ty, have suggested pulling fuel to match the 38R, now we don't have to, we have more towing/loaded HP because of this turbos ability to provide good usable air where we need it.

It's not really so much a sh!t on the 38R thread, as much as its a "look at the improvements over the 38R we have found with this new charger. Because almost everyone who has switched, had a 38R (though some modded) and so many people out there do have them. And if you're looking for a little more, there are better options out there now.

See that makes perfectly good sense and I doubt most who have been posting otherwise would have issue with. I sure do not and in fact have been saying just that, Its fine to have a turbo that is better even much much better just that the 38R is not a cause of all these issues as a general rule. Of course if you have fueling heavy and move to turbo that spools faster and moves more air its going to make it clean up.

Point being I am perfectly fine with the SXE or whatever turbo being dramatically better than the 38R. Bu that does not make the 38R a hot smokey turbo. It would be like saying the 6.4L is much better engine therefore the 7.3 is a worthless POS that can not tow 10K without overheating etc whatever. Its silly.

 

[mikeeg02]

See that makes perfectly good sense and I doubt most who have been posting otherwise would have issue with. I sure do not and in fact have been saying just that, Its fine to have a turbo that is better even much much better just that the 38R is not a cause of all these issues as a general rule. Of course if you have fueling heavy and move to turbo that spools faster and moves more air its going to make it clean up.

Point being I am perfectly fine with the SXE or whatever turbo being dramatically better than the 38R. Bu that does not make the 38R a hot smokey turbo. It would be like saying the 6.4L is much better engine therefore the 7.3 is a worthless POS that can not tow 10K without overheating etc whatever. Its silly.

I think the point most of us have been trying to make, is if your unhappy with the performance of your setup, and thats the turbo you have (and to this point I/We are assuming everything is tight, no leaks etc) that this may be the light at the end of the tunnel you're looking for. Sure quick spurts, street driving it may still be a fun setup, and you don't notice some of the problems, but now you've hooked to a big trailer, and want to use your power you have made available to yourself. And I know Ty has towed ALOT with his, but up until recently in the thread, he'd mentioned about using the right tune. Telling me he tows in a lighter tune. (Which is not a problem, and probably smarter. Up until that point I @$$umed he towed in the same file he ripped around in. Like I do.

I know if I kept my pulse width to ~2.8ms, I could tow whatever I wanted with the 38R, and it wouldnt get hot, it would stay right about 1250*, but I studded, did beehives, built a dual stock pumped RR fuel system, dual disc clutch, and have more fuel available that I want to be able to use. With my tuning I couldnt drive it into surge (pretty sure ge@rhead doesnt fuel enough below 2k for that).

For me, with the 6 speed, the T4 setup has completely opened up the mid range and top end, and it doesnt seem like I have lost a bit off the bottom. Almost to the same difference as my tired HPOP did for the top end vs when I got a T500 that could hang in there that much better (with stock injectors). As Ty pointed out earlier, its likely I could have felt some of that by opening up my gate ( I had wound it in 6 turns like everyone used to say to do with hybrids ). But I didnt have my dual boost gauge yet to measure the boost:backpressure yet. Im not upset I didnt try it, because I got most of my money back out of it.

And to top ALL of the performance gains. Its quiet. The cab of the truck is peaceful again. So its hard not to brag about how well it works.

And again, this is all based off of our "reference" aka the 38R (the defacto standard of 7.3 performance) we had before. For those who have similar experiences, we want to share the benefits they should experience.

 

[TyCorr]

You're also forgetting my tune i use is at higher power than some of you guys race tunes. My stock file has done 360-390 on dozens of trucks. Alas, i do not tow in that tune as it shifts into overdrive at 50mph. Maybe less. With all different kinds of turbos that file has made 360-390 rwhp. My economy tune that i drive around in is 450hp. Thats the one i tow in too. Or i have been lately.

The #2 tune in between the stock (#1) and economy (#3) is a heavy tow tune. It shifts great but the fueling is a tad off and it can get hot in 3rd but once in od its fine. I dint yse it fir that reason. Thats tuning not turbo though. Because i go to a 450hp tune with more conservative fueling, flatter fuel curve, linear pedal, etc. Its called an economy tune but to me its just a medium power tune with good characteristics. I cant say the same for the higher hp tunes. Swapping to a stock 38r wheel, gh or php tunes, and possibly live tunes would render 100% better results.

Curtis frost ran a 250/200 and 38r combo that he tuned himself. It did 478hp. That number being irrelevant as itvwas only established to see what the max effort of his tune was. He towed over the highest passes in Co everyday. On a 6" lift. With 37s and 35s. Max egts of 1100 degrees.

 

[lincolnlocker]

I think the point most of us have been trying to make, is if your unhappy with the performance of your setup, and thats the turbo you have (and to this point I/We are assuming everything is tight, no leaks etc) that this may be the light at the end of the tunnel you're looking for. Sure quick spurts, street driving it may still be a fun setup, and you don't notice some of the problems, but now you've hooked to a big trailer, and want to use your power you have made available to yourself. And I know Ty has towed ALOT with his, but up until recently in the thread, he'd mentioned about using the right tune. Telling me he tows in a lighter tune. (Which is not a problem, and probably smarter. Up until that point I @$$umed he towed in the same file he ripped around in. Like I do.

I know if I kept my pulse width to ~2.8ms, I could tow whatever I wanted with the 38R, and it wouldnt get hot, it would stay right about 1250*, but I studded, did beehives, built a dual stock pumped RR fuel system, dual disc clutch, and have more fuel available that I want to be able to use. With my tuning I couldnt drive it into surge (pretty sure ge@rhead doesnt fuel enough below 2k for that).

For me, with the 6 speed, the T4 setup has completely opened up the mid range and top end, and it doesnt seem like I have lost a bit off the bottom. Almost to the same difference as my tired HPOP did for the top end vs when I got a T500 that could hang in there that much better (with stock injectors). As Ty pointed out earlier, its likely I could have felt some of that by opening up my gate ( I had wound it in 6 turns like everyone used to say to do with hybrids ). But I didnt have my dual boost gauge yet to measure the boost:backpressure yet. Im not upset I didnt try it, because I got most of my money back out of it.

And to top ALL of the performance gains. Its quiet. The cab of the truck is peaceful again. So its hard not to brag about how well it works.

And again, this is all based off of our "reference" aka the 38R (the defacto standard of 7.3 performance) we had before. For those who have similar experiences, we want to share the benefits they should experience.

that proves my point as to you wanting more then the 38r could or should do.. yes you can pull fuel but you want what your setup can and will do from max effort. so yes, switching to a turbo that out performs a 38r is the only way you are going to do that.. that is just common sense.. I however leave my dually in one tune for everything I do with that.. and that is the hottest tune that makes over 450hp wot.. and as I have stated before, tow whatever I wanted whenever I wanted and never had an issue.. but it is also maxed out with the measly little injectors that are live tuned to the setup.. do I have lower tunes? yes.. do I use them, no! I don't need to because everything works as it should..

with an injector swap, I will be turbo limited then.. but as mentioned, a few people with the right gate setup have hit 600 with a 38r.. at that point I will not be able to tow with the all out tune. that is just common sense.. I will need a different tune other then a pulling tune to even drive it on the street..





for the record, I'm not arguing that the sxe isn't a better turbo.. it very well should be because it is designed to be and flows more air.. with the right tuning, without trying to make gobs of power and still be able to tow then the 38r and any injector combo like tarm mentioned, can be tuned accordingly but you wont be able to tow without switching tunes.. that is obviously not possible. the sxe or whatever that is designed to perform and out flow the 38r will be the cure all to that.. it should be.. plain and simple. but nobody can say that a 38r is complete junk cuz it wouldn't work as long as tuning is on point with its setup or has a lower tune that is designed for it..

again, I think is what is happening is that people wanted to tow in a tune that makes over 500 hp and a 38r isn't happy there so that is when the turbo got swapped out.. yes, that is a cure.. duh.. it very well should be. a 38r out flows a stock charger by quite a bit.. guys tune their trucks and now the stock charger is junk and swap to a 38r... bam! it's cured again.. same thing with reaching the limits of a 38r and after market injectors.. swap to a better flowing turbo, bam! it's cured again.. put bigger injectors in and bam, back to square one.. its a never ending cycle..

bottom line is a 38r can be tuned to run cool with any size injector. it may only be a 300hp tune but it can be done.. if not then there is something wrong somewhere else.. period..


tarn nailed it when he said the turbo itself could have been a bad run off the line.. if so, very sucky.. if not, something was wrong..


as for the guys wanting to tow with over 450-500hp, obviously the 38r is past its limit.. back the tune down and run it or just get a better flowing turbo.. obviously that is what a few have done.. good for you. but you can't say the 38r is junk just because you are trying to do something with it that it isn't designed to do unless in fact it was junk from garret...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[mikeeg02]

Nobody is doubting the 38R works and does its job. It has for the last 14 years. But there are better options out there now. And if someone comes to me needing up pipes anyways, obviously I'm going to suggest the t4 route. Because then you're also not limited to the drop in platform and you can run anyone's t4 turbo.

Personally I've bought two 38R's, on two different trucks. With two different expectations. It's just not enough for what I want now.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Nobody is doubting the 38R works and does its job. It has for the last 14 years. But there are better options out there now. And if someone comes to me needing up pipes anyways, obviously I'm going to suggest the t4 route. Because then you're also not limited to the drop in platform and you can run anyone's t4 turbo.

Personally I've bought two 38R's, on two different trucks. With two different expectations. It's just not enough for what I want now.

and that all makes perfect sense too!!


I wasn't actually saying you but ment everyone in general..




a 38r with a good gate can make 600hp.. but needs a different tune to tow. obviously!

that sxe shouldn't need anything to make that hp but may need a lil different tune to tow also.. if not then that is awesome too.. but I highly doubt it will still tow cool if set up in a tune to make over 500hp....

again that is to everyone. not just mike.


live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TARM]

any more than 300 hp and 700-800 tq on tap is enough to melt down the entire drive train if you actually used it all on our trucks. Charles had proven thins many times,. Melted even the rear axles on the 350. That is towing with the pedal to the floor the whole time. Thats the dif between OTR and mid size trucks and the consumer trucks. The commercial units have 100% duty cycle the 250-450 are just a % of it.

I always found it funny when people back a few years ago talked about wanting a 500 hp tow rig. They really thought they could actually use the 500 hp towing not understanding that you only use that level of power when you foot is to the floor and you are not gaining any speed. Can you imagine holding WOT for much more than a minute let alone hours. Thats why you only see 300 hp 400 Hp OTRs with engines and drivelines 3x what we have.

 

[lincolnlocker]

any more than 300 hp and 700-800 tq on tap is enough to melt down the entire drive train if you actually used it all on our trucks. Charles had proven thins many times,. Melted even the rear axles on the 350. That is towing with the pedal to the floor the whole time. Thats the dif between OTR and mid size trucks and the consumer trucks. The commercial units have 100% duty cycle the 250-450 are just a % of it.

I always found it funny when people back a few years ago talked about wanting a 500 hp tow rig. They really thought they could actually use the 500 hp towing not understanding that you only use that level of power when you foot is to the floor and you are not gaining any speed. Can you imagine holding WOT for much more than a minute let alone hours. Thats why you only see 300 hp 400 Hp OTRs with engines and drivelines 3x what we have.

true!! very true!! it will destroy the drivetrain and or wear it out fast.. but you can't tell people that. lol

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TyCorr]

I will say running around with more power is harder on everything. Brakes, tires, fluids, etc.

They say you can run a vb and converter and it'll hold up but mine didnt. Im enjoying this built trans. It shifts nice and handles the power with aplomb.

 

[lincolnlocker]

I will say running around with more power is harder on everything. Brakes, tires, fluids, etc.

They say you can run a vb and converter and it'll hold up but mine didnt. Im enjoying this built trans. It shifts nice and handles the power with aplomb.

nice!

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[psduser1]

I will say running around with more power is harder on everything. Brakes, tires, fluids, etc.

They say you can run a vb and converter and it'll hold up but mine didnt. Im enjoying this built trans. It shifts nice and handles the power with aplomb.

Good to hear.:thumbup:

 

[mikeeg02]

I dont intend on towing at 500 hp, but its nice on the instant you need to, to have it available. I agree, if you look at the old 3406B model cat's, that made 425 hp. They were a big deal at the time, and the drivetrain in a semi if quite significant compared to ours.

 

[Swaan]

Class 8 trucks have big drive train because of the torque not hp.
A 425hp 3406b has 1650lbs torque.
Big diffrence over a 7.3.
You can tow at 400 hp but torque might only be 800 ftlbs.
. Granted thats maxing out the stock drivetrain in a f350.