Another T4 thread

[TyCorr]

...or go with compounds!





Tuning is definitely important, especially the bigger the nozzle, but how do you tune to make a turbo move more air at 2000rpm with out raising the EGTs?

Run a iarger nozzle and pull pw until the icp is out ahead of the pw for starters.

I wish someone that had Charlies # would alert him to this thread. Hes had compounds and 400/400s, and 300/300s, and 250/200s, and 200/30s etc etc etc. He is running 300/200s and a 38r on a BONE STOCK truck. A pmr to boot and is surging the turbo in od at 50mph towing and BUILDING BOOST UP HILLS. But you guys are saying 175/80s and other ridiculous crap is too much for a 38r.

I understand the whole "doesnt flow shti" thought process about the 38r. Ok, on paper its not where some (define who these people are and ask them "wtf do you know?") arbitrarily decided what this turbo should do. The issue with that is 90% of the time you arent in demand of the flow it has anyway.

Tarm and Tim both hit upon the issue. TUning. Ive had dogshti tunes with a setup similar to mine even on the same truck and it was approaching 1k deg cruising at 75 with 37" tires. I called my tuner. He berated me and said i had a mechanical problem. I called good ole Bill Cohron and explained my issue and at his behest i was to try to make it right with my tuner. Ok. Phone call. More assholio bs and I called Bill back "im sending you this chip with xyz's tunes on it. They suck. Hot as hell."

He calls me a week later "hey these tunes are garbage. Waaaay to much fuel here, here, here and here." I interrupted, "please write me new tunes!" Done. Guess what? My "mechanical problem" vanished. My compression must have magically bumped up.

I am able to scrub the tires in my economy tune from 0-20...thats like the most neutered tune there is lol. I did a 0-100 in that tonight and it never broke 1k degrees. SUnday night i timed my 40-90 to simulate a heavy acceleration merging scenario and in 5.2 seconds in my "economy" tune the truck slingshotted from 40-90 mph and egts hit 810 and i let out. FInd me an ad truck with a 38r and a race tune that can hit 100mph on 35s and under 1200 degrees and ill kiss your azzes.

Im expeditiously scouring my photobucket for the picture I sent Bill two summers ago when i was forced to run my ad codes with 200+ on them and a 30% nozzle with my 38r while pulling 16k worth of **** on a 26' trailer up a grade for 7 miles. I was able to maintain 60mph and in a "40hp heavy tow" that had transmission adjustments tow that load up that grade and i was in between 7 and 800 degrees.

 

[The Brad]

Run a iarger nozzle and pull pw until the icp is out ahead of the pw for starters.

I wish someone that had Charlies # would alert him to this thread. Hes had compounds and 400/400s, and 300/300s, and 250/200s, and 200/30s etc etc etc. He is running 300/200s and a 38r on a BONE STOCK truck. A pmr to boot and is surging the turbo in od at 50mph towing and BUILDING BOOST UP HILLS. But you guys are saying 175/80s and other ridiculous crap is too much for a 38r.

I understand the whole "doesnt flow shti" thought process about the 38r. Ok, on paper its not where some (define who these people are and ask them "wtf do you know?") arbitrarily decided what this turbo should do. The issue with that is 90% of the time you arent in demand of the flow it has anyway.

Tarm and Tim both hit upon the issue. TUning. Ive had dogshti tunes with a setup similar to mine even on the same truck and it was approaching 1k deg cruising at 75 with 37" tires. I called my tuner. He berated me and said i had a mechanical problem. I called good ole Bill Cohron and explained my issue and at his behest i was to try to make it right with my tuner. Ok. Phone call. More assholio bs and I called Bill back "im sending you this chip with xyz's tunes on it. They suck. Hot as hell."

He calls me a week later "hey these tunes are garbage. Waaaay to much fuel here, here, here and here." I interrupted, "please write me new tunes!" Done. Guess what? My "mechanical problem" vanished. My compression must have magically bumped up.

I am able to scrub the tires in my economy tune from 0-20...thats like the most neutered tune there is lol. I did a 0-100 in that tonight and it never broke 1k degrees. SUnday night i timed my 40-90 to simulate a heavy acceleration merging scenario and in 5.2 seconds in my "economy" tune the truck slingshotted from 40-90 mph and egts hit 810 and i let out. FInd me an ad truck with a 38r and a race tune that can hit 100mph on 35s and under 1200 degrees and ill kiss your azzes.

Im expeditiously scouring my photobucket for the picture I sent Bill two summers ago when i was forced to run my ad codes with 200+ on them and a 30% nozzle with my 38r while pulling 16k worth of **** on a 26' trailer up a grade for 7 miles. I was able to maintain 60mph and in a "40hp heavy tow" that had transmission adjustments tow that load up that grade and i was in between 7 and 800 degrees.

Your EGTs seem very low for pulling 16k up a grade. I did try PHP tuning and there was no, zero difference other than shifting. I've played the game of going between tuner and injector builder and checking compression, boost/drive leaks and every other fcuking thing. My next step was to try the SXE or regear. I'm glad I went the SXE route. With no changes other than the turbo, I have a completely different truck, on the same "crappy tuning".

I don't think anyone thinks that 175/80s is too much fuel for a 38r, but your solution to make a 38r work is to switch to 200% nozzles?

Ty, I've read a lot of your posts and you seem to know what you're talking about, but have you ran both turbos?

 

[lincolnlocker]

FInd me an ad truck with a 38r and a race tune that can hit 100mph on 35s and under 1200 degrees and ill kiss your azzes.

Im expeditiously scouring my photobucket for the picture I sent Bill two summers ago when i was forced to run my ad codes with 200+ on them and a 30% nozzle with my 38r while pulling 16k worth of **** on a 26' trailer up a grade for 7 miles. I was able to maintain 60mph and in a "40hp heavy tow" that had transmission adjustments tow that load up that grade and i was in between 7 and 800 degrees.

whats a "ad" truck? injectors? as in splitshots? who the fack puts nozzles on stock injectors?

my dually will hit 100 in 3rd on 34.5s and be around 1000°...


I ran my 5er at a buck 20 that was 34 feet and weighed a hair over 10k lbs and never cracked 1400°...


rpm let's them breath
















don't ask about pushrods though... we are not talking about them..... lmao

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[hucorey]

In my experiences, the Garrett 38R 1.0 AR flows fine up to 200/80 hybrids, but 230's, the drive pressures are higher than I'm comfortable with for longevity.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[TARM]

So many people would do better to have waste gates but so many would rather spend money on something else.

When you consider that stock injectors are too much fuel for the stock turbo and then look at the air flow difference between it and the 38r its easy to see why you can get 80% hybrids if you fuel them heavy to cook the egts. 80% hybrids gets you a good deal more fueling than stock ad especially if you have upgraded HPOP.

Honestly for maxing out the 80% hybrids it would be something moving a bit more air than a 38r although its a good match for it as there are large numbers of 7.3 that were putting out 500 HP setups and good egts running that combo.

There are just better choices out there today it seems. I have not messed with any of the smaller turbos since I got my gtx so I have only others experiences to gauge it by.

But IMO for those that are going to work there setup hard I would choose a larger turbo rather than one that has puled everything it can out of a certain wheel size as in every case I have seen it lower durability.

For me my ideal setup for a 7.3 for all around is a set of compounds on 200% nozzles not looking to max out HP just get great throttle response thru the entire load range. A HP turbo that really lit low and spool up really fast where I could dial it back with the waste gate and then a nice large atmos that would give me really smooth but very low drive pressure ratios. I spent a good deal of time looking at maps and talking to guys to find good matches without having to go custom. Keeps things easier Would not be looking to get out of the 600s.

I think I would over time have trouble staying away for 400% knowing I had the air there if I wanted it. Just I would rather have more reliability if I have a fully built engine than to push it to the ragged edge with boost pressure around 100+. Rather have something I know I could stomp on over and over and not have to worry about it coming apart for a very long time. But thats just me. Even if I did have 400% I would likely only use it to push the RPM further but without actually increasing absolute fueling levels below where I was already peaking HP. Hold peak Tq below 1500 for sure if not closer to 1200 as a max. Rather get another 300-500 rpms of band width moving the peak up etc. But that's just me and my preference.

IF I keep the 7.3 in it that is ultimately what I will do. Otherwise its getting the DT360 I have on the burner to build. Throw in a fuller 6 or 8 speed and make it the ideal end of world rig :naughty:

 

[TyCorr]

whats a "ad" truck? injectors? as in splitshots? who the fack puts nozzles on stock injectors?

my dually will hit 100 in 3rd on 34.5s and be around 1000°...


I ran my 5er at a buck 20 that was 34 feet and weighed a hair over 10k lbs and never cracked 1400°...


rpm let's them breath
















don't ask about pushrods though... we are not talking about them..... lmao

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

I did. IT was a thing on my list of always wanted to do. It worked. IF you have a hot oil pump it gives youna decent bump in power. I only did it for a short period in between hybrid sets.

Brad, i could NOT run foot to the floor now and have egts that low. Unless i towed in my fuel sipper tune or drove the pedal for egts. I pulled a telehandler today and 75 36' sheets on a 42+ 5 pj gn trailer and my stock tune i was able to tow at the speed limit under 1k degrees. I pulled a scissors lift home on the same trailer in my "economy" tune and i hit 1100 degrees once running wtfo. I believe my truck is slightly over fueled as well. IM running dynoproven tuning and its mediocre at best. In 9ther words, bill or matt @gh could do me better. MY trans builder would like me to go to gh.

 

[TyCorr]

Your EGTs seem very low for pulling 16k up a grade. I did try PHP tuning and there was no, zero difference other than shifting. I've played the game of going between tuner and injector builder and checking compression, boost/drive leaks and every other fcuking thing. My next step was to try the SXE or regear. I'm glad I went the SXE route. With no changes other than the turbo, I have a completely different truck, on the same "crappy tuning".

I don't think anyone thinks that 175/80s is too much fuel for a 38r, but your solution to make a 38r work is to switch to 200% nozzles?

Ty, I've read a lot of your posts and you seem to know what you're talking about, but have you ran both turbos?

No. I haven't ran both. IF i saw the need id have done it already. IVe got nearly 50k miles on my truck setup the way it is. Save fir the 4r100. ITs new as of August. HUcorey actually delivered it to me. Its been great so far and I don't anticipate any issues out of it. Its a sam wyse stg 2 build.

I had planned a 364.5sxe or 366sxe but with new billet plenums, flushing my intercooler out, and new boots and clamps, my egts are a non issue.

 

[mandkole]

This has been an entertaining thread. I think that a 38R still has a place, but Im really liking the results that guys are getting with the smaller Borgs. If it wasn't for the exhaust plumbing revisions that would be needed (to swap me from the GT42), Id have a 364.5 or similar flavor put on.

Im just getting lazy and don't care to put much effort in on a 3-4,000 mi/yr truck that tows part of that time.. LOL

 

[superpsd]

I think a few builders sell nozzled AD injectors including swamps I think. I see they all use 30% nozzles.

 

[TyCorr]

I think a few builders sell nozzled AD injectors including swamps I think. I see they all use 30% nozzles.

Yea. Its not that crazy of an idea. 80% might be a tad much in terms of oil demands, but the 30% was just fine with a healthy srp.

The best part is you can run them off of a stock superduty pcm and gain about 30-50 hp by doing nothing else.

 

[TyCorr]

This has been an entertaining thread. I think that a 38R still has a place, but Im really liking the results that guys are getting with the smaller Borgs. If it wasn't for the exhaust plumbing revisions that would be needed (to swap me from the GT42), Id have a 364.5 or similar flavor put on.

Im just getting lazy and don't care to put much effort in on a 3-4,000 mi/yr truck that tows part of that time.. LOL

They do have a place. I barely get on here anymore and im just the outspoken silent majority. In other words, there are millions of 38r trucks towing and running way more fuel than a stock truck has. At around 300 whp you cant get egts above 900 if you try. 400hp you can probably get 1100, barring mechanical issues.

I can see a setup like yours being a touch toasty on yours mandkole. Unless you keep the r's up.

 

[The Brad]

No. I haven't ran both. IF i saw the need id have done it already. IVe got nearly 50k miles on my truck setup the way it is. Save fir the 4r100. ITs new as of August. HUcorey actually delivered it to me. Its been great so far and I don't anticipate any issues out of it. Its a sam wyse stg 2 build.

I had planned a 364.5sxe or 366sxe but with new billet plenums, flushing my intercooler out, and new boots and clamps, my egts are a non issue.

I've been wanting to flush out my intercooler. Anyone notice any improvement after doing it?

 

[TyCorr]

I did a bit. I think mine had oil in it. I do think when you are beating the tar out of them the oil can get pushed by whichever side sees higher pressure. I flushed mine with hot water, then hot water and degreaser, then straight degreaser, then three clean hit water rinses. I nudged thecwater out with a blower and then let it sit. If nothing else it'll increase air density.

I would like to get a new $$$$ aluminum one from whoever. Spearco are good but hefty on $$$. Bankscactually makes really good intercoolers. Csf are goid by report as well. They are a overseas maufacturer but you can buy 6 of them for the admission price ofone soearco.

 

[mandkole]

I can see a setup like yours being a touch toasty on yours mandkole. Unless you keep the r's up.

Yup, that's the drill.. make some exhaust energy.

 

[TyCorr]

Yup, that's the drill.. make some exhaust energy.

Yep. Not too big a deal. Empty i bet is fun though!:evil

 

[TyCorr]

I sold my 175/80s (they were 80s, sent in and renozzled to 100s, srp took a chit and they were sent in and renozzled to 80s), an older 38r, and my twisted stg2 to a guy who landscapes and he is running a tow tune specific to that setup.

I asked him to come on here and share his experience and he said "no way. I joined on that duramaxtuner site and anytime you share something people tell you you're lying". LOL i figured as much lol. Im not sure what his lmm has done to it. I think its just tuned but has a hotter pump because it was dropping rail. HE did have a built trans put in it. He was saying that truck will eeadily hit 12 and 1400 pulling the dump trailer loaded. The 7.3 he said hits 1k if its on the floor and loaded up pulling a grade. I have NO IDEA of power output on his tow tune. I think the stg 2 twisted and the trans tuning are largely to credit for his experience. I had heat issues with that setup on my truck but i was running 37s and trying to tow in a 450 hp tune. I had my tunes redone and 400ish hp was max output before the injector was open too long to keep cool. ANd after that point the smoke started becoming something you had to drive around.

Just an fyi. I also set up a e99 eclb with 38r, 160/30s, a 17deg pump, and a vb tq conv and had it detailed. I flipped it and the guy that bought it ran shti all over the country for the last year. HE uninstalled the gauges and added a cts but said his egts were stone cold but te also added a banks ic after he bought it. But nobody would suspect issues with that setup, Id hope.

 

[mikeeg02]

So to be clear, where you're happy towing/working the 38R is in a 400hp file? And a 450 hp file had heat issues ?


EDIT: Lets try to leave injector sizing out of this question. Though I had a similar experience with my old truck but 400 hp was all it had in it. And at that level I was happy with my 38R in all aspects.

 

[TyCorr]

But you're glossing over the pw required to achieve that. So saying "400hp is the max" is not true. And saying that is misleading in that you truly need to define the exact power that 400hp capable setup is making when its too hot. So a 38r will clean up a tuned set of ad injectors but wont keep cool a 400hp potential truck when its making 110 hp cruising down the road at 70? That hardly makes sense.

And yes my egts with a 175/80 are way hotter than they are with 250/200s. But that's a universal theme. A truck tuned correctly with a fast nozzle will run cooler than a truck with a 300hp nozzle thats stretched out to 400+. Which is exactly what an 80% nozzle is. Will an 80 make more? Sure. Hotter than hell though. As evidenced in this thread.

I just about ordered 200s this last time and if I did, they were getting 200 over nozzles. My economy tune maxes out at 2.4ms of pw. It totally rips. Its funny. Its becoming my favorite tune because its actually efficient. Its just "right". It doesnt smoke alot(if at all). It is cool in terms of egts. My fuel economy is the best its EVER BEEN. I drove 300 miles today into a 40mph headwind and that leg i filled up and still managed 17. Im guessing the few miles the wind was whipping around "pushing" me was increasi g the avg? I filled it up and head home. Ive got another 270miles on the tank and im at 3/4 of a tank. It'll be around 22mpg. This is cruising though. Not stop n go. Running across town and 8 miles at a time its pretty bad. Like 13mpg bad.

Now that im knocking on 60k on a setup like this i can say i completely understand the smart, ********** members when they said "a 200% nozzle is the best nozzle for a truck that needs to do everything." You could make 300 rwhp all day and set the pyro at 650-700 degrees.

 

[TyCorr]

So to be clear, where you're happy towing/working the 38R is in a 400hp file? And a 450 hp file had heat issues ?


EDIT: Lets try to leave injector sizing out of this question. Though I had a similar experience with my old truck but 400 hp was all it had in it. And at that level I was happy with my 38R in all aspects.

Ive been up since 4am and i quoted you in the previous post but as it stands it didnt take and it needs to be stated ciearly "no, im not saying im only happy at 400hp with a 38r". My point in hoing on about my "economy" tune is that its maybe not a true fuel saver in that its neutered to cut back on consumed fuel but rather they make the truck run right when they want efficient performance.

I have clearly outlined a few performance marks of that tune. You dont go from 40-90 in 5 seconds with 400hp. You dont spin two 35s on a 12 wide with 400 hp. That takes 450 +. I can break the tires loose on pavement meant to grab in wet conditions doing 50mph.

And theres more in it. A lot more. I have driven a 600hp 6l quite a bit. For six months probably. This truck isnt lacking much in comparison. Not bragging. Just saying.

 

[mikeeg02]

I never said cruising at 70 mph making ~110hp while towing a 38R would be hot. But that condition can happen with any turbo, if your rpms are low enough. (not knowing gear ratio vs tire size of said truck making said claim) From what I understand, this is a condition that can happen with the aftermarket wheels on the 38R's, but I have 0 experience there. I left mine alone after talking to a few members, and reading about them coming apart probably from poor installation practices.

I do have interest in going to a 200% nozzle (hindsight is 20/20). And maybe yours work that much better because of how your injector manufacturer puts the package together. And I do understand the concept of more fuel per time of nozzle size, and the benefits that has in regards to making cooler, more efficient power. (though many tuners now, heed warning about going to them for the need of some trucks requiring live tuning, and yes the better tuners youve mentioned give that warning, and I also have the same tuners writing my files)

I do also realize the additional hp thats required to spin up tires, and accelerate quickly unloaded (or loaded) like you described before. The point of the above statement being the ability to make power, for a duration. Towing and loaded. That is where I feel the new Borgs really shine over the 14 year old design the 38R has. The ability to make and hold the same or more horsepower. If the 38R was really that great to begin with, why did you put an aftermarket compressor wheel on it? Its the quest for more, and more useable power.

Hell the other night I was doing some testing loaded up a grade, and can make 5+ psi at 1500 rpms, smoke free, and sub 1k temperatures (800 IIRC) with a 366sxe and a 1.0 housing. At 1500 rpms! And I pulled like that for the duration of the grade. I know for a fact when I had the 38R in the same conditions, it wouldnt happen.

The entire point of this thread IMO is to show the improvement and (towing oriented) performance gains of the new borg chargers. And several people have gone from the 38R to a variant of the new borg chargers. (and many have commented in this thread) To see if they hold up to the test of time like the 38R has, will take time to tell. But I can tell you that I have absolutely 0 regrets in this charger swap(its just money right?). Improvements in every aspect. Several people have made the jump, and with no other changes seen the benefits.