powerstrokenstang
New member
So what does an average b code flow in say 2ms w a 200% tip.
B code v.s. Hybrid
- Thread starter Derek@Vision Diesel
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Hotrodtractor
Moderator
The ones in my pulling truck did about 210cc in 2ms. The injectors I installed in that black CC pulling truck were hybrids that did about 230cc under the same conditions with 200% tips.
ADDED: I should also add that was at 2800 or 3000psi - I don't recall exactly - if you turn that ICP pressure down to say 800psi - then the B-code will inject more fuel in the same time period compared to the hybrid.
Matt - no - very few people truly understand these things and that is why it has taken as long as it has to get to where we currently are.
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JDub
Active member
My stock 248cc b-codes with big nozzles did 754hp uncorrected, swapped those injectors out for some oil modded 248cc b-codes with the an even larger nozzle and did 938hp uncorrected. Both sets of injectors made right at 500hp on fuel only, as I was limited on turbocharger.
That 1018hp was a corrected number so it doesn't count for much...
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Derek@Vision Diesel
New member
Alright, even though people say to throw the laughing gas out of the mix, it still shows that there is more fuel there TO burn, whether you can burn it fuel only or not is another story. Yeah nitrous doesnt show how itll run on the street, but isnt nitrous just like turbo in a bottle? It helps burn the fuel that is there, if the fuel is not there it cant help out nearly as much.
He was running a gated GQSSB i believe, so 500-500 is right where he should be on fuel only... no one knows what it would have done with compounds/ a larger single.
You gained nearly 200hp swapping nozzles and modding it on the oil side to counteract the pressure drop im guessing? So that injector is still only holding 248cc, Jacob just found a way to injector it faster at high RPM. The B code is still very impressive at this point, what 248cc hybrid has done 950 on nitrous?
Why would you only make an injector 248cc if you have it apart anyway even if you only plan to use 248cc? Short term bursts on a dyno and a 1/4 mile pass are different tasks for an injector. Hell Mega ICP will show more HP on a dyno but be slower on the track.... why do you think that is?
Derek@Vision Diesel
New member
Well i get the theory of having it refill and having a cushion of fuel there after its injected. But a stock B code is 248, so that is why its impressive, it hasnt been touched or changed, which is part of the appeal is brand new untouched and unchanged form.
But why slower on the track but higher numbers on the dyno, doesnt give it a chance to refill?
JDub
Active member
The injectors that made 938hp in my truck were the first set of injectors to propel a 7.3L into the 10's at the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF3Myc9w7OQ
That's where i'd be pointing my finger......
The only cc that matters is what you are injecting. 250mm^3 is a lot of fuel.
Derek@Vision Diesel
New member
Thats a sweet video, LOTTSSAAA nitrous haha
Jacob, not discounting what you guys have done. The extra "wiggle room" of fuel capacity just makes things more consistant from what I've witnessed. I won't get into details, but there are certain rpms that cause HEUI injectors to do funny stuff and the extra capacity allows the injector to give the same amount of commanded fuel across those conditions/rpm ranges.
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JDub
Active member
I'm not making a claim for or against, just showing what that particular set of b-codes have accomplished.
Charles
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So much basic logic failing in this thread.
First basic logic building block fail... you people talking about injection "quality"... what is that exactly? Is it not determined by droplet diameter? The smaller the droplet diameter the greater the atomization. That's what atomization IS....
So.... how do you get the lowest droplet diameter for a given injection quantity? Simple.... the smallest hole with the greatest pressure.
Now... given these FACTS.... take into consideration that at identical pw and ICP a hybrid moves more fuel across a 200% nozzle than a B-code. Instead of focusing on the more fuel part.... instead focus on the fact that the nozzle was identical. It's not a case where the hybrid just dumps large quantities of fuel through a huge nozzle at low pressure like many of you so obviously think. I just said it moves more fuel per time across the SAME nozzle. Now sit back and think about that.... how is that POSSIBLE??? There is exactly ONE way that is possible. The hybrid has HIGHER injection pressure than the B at competitive flow rates. There is NO other way to move more fuel per time across a given orifice than with greater pressure. PERIOD. NO....OTHER....WAY....
So.... if the pressure is HIGHER..... and the hole sizes are IDENTICAL..... then how do you suppose the injection "quality" is LOWER???? It's NOT! The hybrid has BETTER atomization at full tilt with identical nozzles of a competitive size than a B-code does, because the injection pressure is HIGHER for the hybrid.
At low demand and low ICP the B-code will catch up, and surpass the hybrid in terms of achieved injection pressure. And this makes Lott feel all good inside when he's driving around because he apparently can't handle tossing the hybrid a few hundred extra psi as you roll on the pedal in these situations. So he says the B drives better. Fine. The fact that he pretends that I haven't run my own truck on a few sets of B's I find amusing. In fact... I was running B's in MY truck waaaaaaaaay before guys like Lott thought they were cool beans. In fact.... at that time, many people said they would destroy the engine because of the symmetrical nozzle...
When I ran my first set of B's Lott was busy selling Mini-Me's as hard as he could while I was making 438rwhp on fuel with stock 7 hole powerstroke nozzles. I doubt anyone has run as much ACTUAL injection pressure on a 7.3 injector as that set. It actually eroded the fuel plates like a water jet machine...
So if we could skip the part about how Lott's the reigning champ on experience with B's it would help stave off the gag reflex a bit here...
Second massive logical fail of the thread...
If you want to make a set of injectors with full stroke of EXAAAAACTLY how much fuel you plan to inject... fine...
But that doesn't make you "cool" because your injectors are ____cc at full stroke while someone else's are 100 more cc's at full stroke and you still make decent power. It's like you people think we're injecting 400 F'ing cc's of fuel at full power.
I made 644 on fuel, uncorrected at a scope verified 2ms of pulsewidth. My injectors at the time flowed ~250 to 260cc per 1000 shots at 2ms at the same 2800 to 3000psi. I had a reserve stroke up to 300cc.... but that doesn't mean I actually injected it. I now have a reserve up to 400cc but don't inject but ~20cc more due entirely to the ability of the 400% nozzle to move more fuel WITHIN that same 2ms window.
Last massive conceptual blunder of the thread...
The difference between a hybrid and a B in 2ms at say 3000psi with say a 200 to 300% nozzle is a very modest amount. It is NOT a massive disparity. It's not as if the B only fills the beaker halfway in comparison. We're talking about deficiencies on the order of 5 to 10cc's.
NOT an amount that is going to just devestate a truck running B's to the point of obvious deficiency. It just means that for any GIVEN truck.... there's a little more with hybrids at full song. Between trucks..... the G'damn differences from truck to truck are many TIMES greater than anything you will see between B's and Hybrids up top. ESPECIALLY with pussy ass nozzles that don't require any real rate from the injectors anyway. So comparing one truck running B's to another running hybrids is retarded.
First basic logic building block fail... you people talking about injection "quality"... what is that exactly? Is it not determined by droplet diameter? The smaller the droplet diameter the greater the atomization. That's what atomization IS....
So.... how do you get the lowest droplet diameter for a given injection quantity? Simple.... the smallest hole with the greatest pressure.
Now... given these FACTS.... take into consideration that at identical pw and ICP a hybrid moves more fuel across a 200% nozzle than a B-code. Instead of focusing on the more fuel part.... instead focus on the fact that the nozzle was identical. It's not a case where the hybrid just dumps large quantities of fuel through a huge nozzle at low pressure like many of you so obviously think. I just said it moves more fuel per time across the SAME nozzle. Now sit back and think about that.... how is that POSSIBLE??? There is exactly ONE way that is possible. The hybrid has HIGHER injection pressure than the B at competitive flow rates. There is NO other way to move more fuel per time across a given orifice than with greater pressure. PERIOD. NO....OTHER....WAY....
So.... if the pressure is HIGHER..... and the hole sizes are IDENTICAL..... then how do you suppose the injection "quality" is LOWER???? It's NOT! The hybrid has BETTER atomization at full tilt with identical nozzles of a competitive size than a B-code does, because the injection pressure is HIGHER for the hybrid.
At low demand and low ICP the B-code will catch up, and surpass the hybrid in terms of achieved injection pressure. And this makes Lott feel all good inside when he's driving around because he apparently can't handle tossing the hybrid a few hundred extra psi as you roll on the pedal in these situations. So he says the B drives better. Fine. The fact that he pretends that I haven't run my own truck on a few sets of B's I find amusing. In fact... I was running B's in MY truck waaaaaaaaay before guys like Lott thought they were cool beans. In fact.... at that time, many people said they would destroy the engine because of the symmetrical nozzle...
When I ran my first set of B's Lott was busy selling Mini-Me's as hard as he could while I was making 438rwhp on fuel with stock 7 hole powerstroke nozzles. I doubt anyone has run as much ACTUAL injection pressure on a 7.3 injector as that set. It actually eroded the fuel plates like a water jet machine...
So if we could skip the part about how Lott's the reigning champ on experience with B's it would help stave off the gag reflex a bit here...
Second massive logical fail of the thread...
If you want to make a set of injectors with full stroke of EXAAAAACTLY how much fuel you plan to inject... fine...
But that doesn't make you "cool" because your injectors are ____cc at full stroke while someone else's are 100 more cc's at full stroke and you still make decent power. It's like you people think we're injecting 400 F'ing cc's of fuel at full power.
I made 644 on fuel, uncorrected at a scope verified 2ms of pulsewidth. My injectors at the time flowed ~250 to 260cc per 1000 shots at 2ms at the same 2800 to 3000psi. I had a reserve stroke up to 300cc.... but that doesn't mean I actually injected it. I now have a reserve up to 400cc but don't inject but ~20cc more due entirely to the ability of the 400% nozzle to move more fuel WITHIN that same 2ms window.
Last massive conceptual blunder of the thread...
The difference between a hybrid and a B in 2ms at say 3000psi with say a 200 to 300% nozzle is a very modest amount. It is NOT a massive disparity. It's not as if the B only fills the beaker halfway in comparison. We're talking about deficiencies on the order of 5 to 10cc's.
NOT an amount that is going to just devestate a truck running B's to the point of obvious deficiency. It just means that for any GIVEN truck.... there's a little more with hybrids at full song. Between trucks..... the G'damn differences from truck to truck are many TIMES greater than anything you will see between B's and Hybrids up top. ESPECIALLY with pussy ass nozzles that don't require any real rate from the injectors anyway. So comparing one truck running B's to another running hybrids is retarded.
Vader's Fury
Active member
So going by this then a set of 400cc b-codes should be good for approx 1500 hp.
I thought the common rule was like 2.2-2.4 hp/cc
That works out to more like 3.7-3.8 hp/cc
Thats a big jump!
jkidd_39
Member
Deleted by moderator. <------ Darn it! -Andy
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Charles
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And It's still hilarious that Lott picks the Hybrid over the B because of increased hydraulic ratio.... yet does NOT pick the A over the B.
And if in his mind he thinks that it's plunger rate of drop that's the problem here (it isn't), then between an A and a reverse hybrid, which does he pick?
A hybrid and a B have identical plungers with one having a larger intensifier. He picks the one with the larger intensifier.
So... seeing as an A and a reverse hybrid both have identical plungers and the only difference yet again is intensifier piston diameter.... does his brain still have him pick the one with the larger piston? The reverse hybrid?
Lott? Do you think a reverse hybrid is going to achieve greater injection "quality" through increased injection pressure over a straight A-code?
Anybody else think it's funny that Lott actually thinks the larger intensifier piston of a B-code actually equates to greater "muscle" as he puts it? When in fact, it's exactly that big ass intensifier that KILLS the muscle of the B due to insufficient ability to deliver rotella into that cavity at sufficient rate. The PROVEN result is a DECREASE in force driving the plunger downward. Which manifests itself as reduced injection pressure and reduced flow rate across a given nozzle.
This sh*t's not up for grabs. Multiple people have conducted direct tests and found the same results. You simply can't get enough rotella across the poppet to support rate of volume expansion in a B-code intensifier piston bore. Drilling a million holes in the body UP TO this point doesn't change this.
The only people that can't understand things like this are the ones too stupid to do back to back testing WITHOUT changing major things.
Lott's idea of "testing" something is riding around in one truck running ___, ____, ____, ____, _____ and B-codes, then riding around in another truck running _____, _____, ______, _____, _____ and hybrids.
Because his ass says the B's feel better, it must be so. And anyone that DIRECTLY tests the two injector types back to back at the SAME TIME in a device DIRECTLY measuring their output SIMULTANEOUSLY is the DEVIL!!!
LOL
F'ing B-codes.
And if in his mind he thinks that it's plunger rate of drop that's the problem here (it isn't), then between an A and a reverse hybrid, which does he pick?
A hybrid and a B have identical plungers with one having a larger intensifier. He picks the one with the larger intensifier.
So... seeing as an A and a reverse hybrid both have identical plungers and the only difference yet again is intensifier piston diameter.... does his brain still have him pick the one with the larger piston? The reverse hybrid?
Lott? Do you think a reverse hybrid is going to achieve greater injection "quality" through increased injection pressure over a straight A-code?
Anybody else think it's funny that Lott actually thinks the larger intensifier piston of a B-code actually equates to greater "muscle" as he puts it? When in fact, it's exactly that big ass intensifier that KILLS the muscle of the B due to insufficient ability to deliver rotella into that cavity at sufficient rate. The PROVEN result is a DECREASE in force driving the plunger downward. Which manifests itself as reduced injection pressure and reduced flow rate across a given nozzle.
This sh*t's not up for grabs. Multiple people have conducted direct tests and found the same results. You simply can't get enough rotella across the poppet to support rate of volume expansion in a B-code intensifier piston bore. Drilling a million holes in the body UP TO this point doesn't change this.
The only people that can't understand things like this are the ones too stupid to do back to back testing WITHOUT changing major things.
Lott's idea of "testing" something is riding around in one truck running ___, ____, ____, ____, _____ and B-codes, then riding around in another truck running _____, _____, ______, _____, _____ and hybrids.
Because his ass says the B's feel better, it must be so. And anyone that DIRECTLY tests the two injector types back to back at the SAME TIME in a device DIRECTLY measuring their output SIMULTANEOUSLY is the DEVIL!!!
LOL
F'ing B-codes.
Derek@Vision Diesel
New member
I think the Nitrous is the kicker, we arent talking fuel only numbers here. His fuel only numbers were very similar due to lack of turbo. On the bottle the hp/cc should jump slightly id think, as he has proven.
Charles--- Although those seemed mostly directed to prove Lott wrong, you added a lot of information to this thread and thats awesome. It took me 5 or 6 times of reading that to fully understand it all but this thread has surely given me some food for thought.
Can i ask a question to anyone: If we take todays hybrid that most shops build (FF, swamps, Unlimited, rosewood) and compare it to a B. It seems that the hybrid is pushing more fuel at high RPMs, and the reason its got the advantage (in very crude terms) is there is a pressure lost inside the B at higher RPMs. So we throw out the low RPM benefits and just look at high RPMs, have people found a way to modify a stock B code to accept a high pressure INSIDE the injector? The injectors Jacob was running that he gained so much HP on were "oil side modded". So would that be more comparable at high RPM's to the hybrid then?
powerstrokenstang
New member
thanks jason, i had never seen flow data for a b. what ever happened to the guys running 400cc b's its like they disappeared after the 300,400% nozzles and fast mods showed up. that in its self should say alot. is it even possible to make a b code flow 285-290cc's in 2ms? thats what my hybrids are doing.
o and jason you have a pm.
o and jason you have a pm.
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The RPM potential has mostly to do with injection rate not RPM itself. And as charles states, a b code and a hybrid doesn't exhibit much difference when they have 200 percent nozzles, but this thread was started by someone who was thinking of swapping hybrids for b codes and expecting to pick up power.
THis post put nobody in awe of your knowledge. Just something else....
I know Im not smart like you but why have a bunch of oil pumps under the hood when you can put something like an srp1 in and run 300cc hybrids? Isnt huuuuge hpo systems a thing of the past? Whether they were explored fully or not in their heyday. I mean, with the srp1 making the stage I and possibly stage II stealth setups obsolete why go and buy something that is obviously being reconsidered in terms of its usefulness and efficiency?
You have everyones attention, now tell your side of the story, with no regard for what Charles knows or what HRT knows. Spotlights on you!
