B Codes, Not a Noob post

[96F350KID]

My only argument to the higher RPM fuel rates hurting horsepower is that even with hybrids no one seems to make any power peaks past 3100RPM. Even with mine peak power is 3075 rpm and during drag racing the trans never shifts higher than 3200rpm. Sled pulling it would benefit from. My pull truck got 30-40 feet stuck on it all the time but it was only moving at 2600rpm. Peak TQ I notice is never above 25-2800rpm. Even guys with CR Cummins try to push 5K but according to their engine and chassis dyno sheets they peak at 4400 so whats the point? I mean you can get a 12V to make 1200hp at 4500rpm that's great but i can make 100HP less at 1000rpm less than that why would I try to stress everything more just to spin at a rate i can't full fuel at, I can't make power at? Why not take my junk HEUI and try to make more power at lower rpm rather than try to spin high where it doesn't count? That's just my thought, if someone can correct me please chime in. What I notice is most people tend to shy away from anything like n20 or large injectors because of bending rods. So put rods in it?!!? The goal is to make as much hp as you can not budget build a giant paperweight.

 

[TARM]

Yes this is generally true but that is with higher levels of TQ and CP limits.

BTW swamps peaked at 3200 952 hp with over 800 all the way to 4100. THey could have easily made the 4100 800 HP the peak by just adjusting the tuning to lower fuel at the lower rpms.

My point is really when it comes to tuning and setup especially with stock bottom ends and wanting some reliability hard CP limits have to be set. Then from there push the rpms fueling as high as you can go.

Now if we can get any increase in injector fueling volume/time that number goes up higher and higher.

When you can effectively fuel higher RPMs you always make more HP. We already know we can put more fuel down low than even a built block can handle. There has to be CP TQ limits to keep any reliability in the bottom end. The lower level you set the CP and tq the higher you can make the peak HP rpm and peak tq for that matter.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Yes this is generally true but that is with higher levels of TQ and CP limits.

BTW swamps peaked at 3200 952 hp with over 800 all the way to 4100. THey could have easily made the 4100 800 HP the peak by just adjusting the tuning to lower fuel at the lower rpms.

My point is really when it comes to tuning and setup especially with stock bottom ends and wanting some reliability hard CP limits have to be set. Then from there push the rpms fueling as high as you can go.

Now if we can get any increase in injector fueling volume/time that number goes up higher and higher.

When you can effectively fuel higher RPMs you always make more HP. We already know we can put more fuel down low than even a built block can handle. There has to be CP TQ limits to keep any reliability in the bottom end. The lower level you set the CP and tq the higher you can make the peak HP rpm and peak tq for that matter.

I have been wondering about you... glad to see you back on here!!

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[TARM]

Thank Life just gets in the way. I had my 7.3 torn up a bit and it has just sat for basiclaly a year as I have not had time. I need to get the injectors back in it and the upgrades I had pulled it apart to do.

*Irate diesel t4 kit to put on
*WOP old dual terminator
*WOP intake manifolds
*injectors
*batteries relocated to the spare tire nook in the rear cargo
*Surge tank and fuel pump and dahl final filter relocated from frame rail to engine compartment

Oh I almost forgot changing from open air crank case vent and putting it into the exhaust with one waycheck valve. The key is to install it in the outside of a curve. If the muffler as more than just a hole can I would say its best to put it post muffler but as we have such small amounts of restrictions it should not be an issue. Should pull a nice moderate vacuum. It should have no postive surge around going just off idle as that is what the check valve prevents. May add a air vent oil fill cap to keep positive air flow in and then out the exhaust vent port.

I hate it in the intake and frankly the catch cans take up room and are a PITA and really still should have a draft to pull vacuum when moving. That is how the ones on the t444E work and why they are right down the fornt of the engine and hang just below and into the air stream.

 

[powerstrokenstang]

400 nozzles on bad ass hybrids peak at more than 3100.... Few hundred rpm more is more accurate

 

[TyCorr]

400 nozzles on bad ass hybrids peak at more than 3100.... Few hundred rpm more is more accurate

Lotta dyno graphs pulling real hard at 3600....and we all know how things work on dyno compared to on the ground.

 

[Powerstroker7.3]

Matt at GH has always told me that the heui systems can't fuel past 3800 rpm so there was never a point in trying to turn much rpm past that


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[96F350KID]

That might be true but other than running on a dyno when do you ever shift past 32-3400rpm? If the idea is to have a shift made and fall back to where the hp & tq intersect to pick up power once again why hang it out in hopes of just higher hp? 4 cylinder drag racing is comparable at that. They have to spin 10k+ in order just to hold peak hp because they make little tq when a V engine doesn't. That is also talking about gas power rather than diesel. You can make over 1000hp at a higher rpm band but from my 10 year experience hands on with these 90s tech wonders the tq number is still much lower and you still have to push 6k+ of weight down a track. 400% over nozzles just piss fuel instead of injecting it. My track times went down with 400% overs compared to these 300% i have now. Plus with a hybrid and 400% nozzle your injection pressure falls back to less than a stock A code. Diesels make power with atomized fuel not just fuel poured into the cylinder.

 

[lincolnlocker]

That might be true but other than running on a dyno when do you ever shift past 32-3400rpm? If the idea is to have a shift made and fall back to where the hp & tq intersect to pick up power once again why hang it out in hopes of just higher hp? 4 cylinder drag racing is comparable at that. They have to spin 10k+ in order just to hold peak hp because they make little tq when a V engine doesn't. That is also talking about gas power rather than diesel. You can make over 1000hp at a higher rpm band but from my 10 year experience hands on with these 90s tech wonders the tq number is still much lower and you still have to push 6k+ of weight down a track. 400% over nozzles just piss fuel instead of injecting it. My track times went down with 400% overs compared to these 300% i have now. Plus with a hybrid and 400% nozzle your injection pressure falls back to less than a stock A code. Diesels make power with atomized fuel not just fuel poured into the cylinder.

I shift my dually into 3rd as it passes 3600rpm when hooked to the sled...

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[96F350KID]

Refering to drag racing but same still applies with pulling. You need so much HP and TQ with RPM to move the weight, the longer the band is the more few feet you can move the sled once the weights on. But even then if you tq peters off back at 2800 why push it? HP is how fast you hit the wall and TQ is how far you move it. So yourr trying to use hp to push it unless you're geared to hold 3000rpm once you shift from 2nd to 3rd. My pull truck was stick so it was easier. 4th gear 4lo itd hold 2800rpm down the track as long as i blew the tires off at 5100rpm leaving

 

[TARM]

if diesels made power mainly from atomization then ppumps would not be making the power they do. iAromization reallly not as big a deal as is thought it, s about how much fuel you can get in as that pw tightens. This is the case with ALL compression diesels. Its why you do not see any with hp peaks 6k plus. Even CR can not dump the fuel in time. All engines have a cp limit thus tq is always going to be limitesd given that once you reach that threshold the only way to make more hp is rpms. Look at what hp is relatively small gas 4 or 6 cyl gas engine can make but they at turning seriously higher rpms. That is the advantage of spark ignition and other tech. They do not deal with a fixed window of compression.

I am not saying atomization is not a benefit its just not the end all huge factor like fuel is.!

Some of the highest hp if not all of them 7.3 were 400% nozzles. Tuning and injector build air are all factors.

 

[96F350KID]

Stock P7100 pumps put out 15000 psi of injection pressure. When modded at 4100rpm of flow they peak at 25,500. Their advantage is they can move more volume of fuel without pressure drop. Thats why on a big cc pump 12v they'll piss fuel from the exhaust but still run, idle rpm can't burn all of it but it'll still move the fuel. In all diesel engineering classes ive taken that is how they describe the process. In the aftermarket world everyone just trys to flood the engine with fuel like its a alcohol engine. The smaller you make the volume of fuel particles the easier and faster they burn. Thus why diesel in a puddle doesnt burn but if you spray it from a squirt bottle it'll ignite just like gasoline.

 

[TARM]

Makes sense as they still have to get the fuel in time and that takes pressure but thats sort of my point. Its not that the fuel is atomized better its that more is getting in there. They have messed with this in gassers going from same flow rate but 4 nozzle from 2. THE gains were marginal. But they were there and for a given fuel amount it was cleaner burn.

My point was just that its not the atomization itself that the driver of HP as much as its the fuel quantity. I think this is more true with DI than when its precombustion chambers of the older tech. There you need it to more so as its the mixture that has to make it to the cylinder where with DI its there in the cylinder already. But no doubt efficiency goes not when atomization decreases

 

[TyCorr]

This atomization talk needs to come with the disclaimer that despite a lower perceived injection ratio, the hybrid is king here too as there arent huge hpo losses/drops across the poppet resulting in higher pressures at the tip. "Well my b codes dont lack for hpo so its not an issue". But it is. You could have made 15-20% more power with a hybrid that wasn't losing 15-20% of its oressure across the poppet each time that event took place.

If you like b codes enjoy them. If you wanna do more with less, get the 7:1 hybrid.

Nobody said you cant make power with a b code. Or an a code for that matter. Its oft spoken how a 175/80 and 200/80 are not much different in terms of overalln peak output. Fine. Point taken. However that is the exact point where returns diminish. A 200/80 a code would require dual pumps or a gen 3 to maintain the same level of performance as a 175 a code gets from a hot rodded single. And it goes down the toilet from there.

My original srp couldnt oil a set of 275 a codes. It would oil them intil about 400hp and then it flatlined. Duals would get another 40 or 50. Flatline. While smoking enough to make a 12v owner jealous. That was ten years ago or maybe even 15.(the injector tech not the hpop)

Junk. I heard so much gooogily moogily from the internet i was afraid to put hybrids in my truck. I wish id have wised up. Id have ran 250-300 with a 200% nozzle ten years ago and avoided that painful learning curve centered on 175 a codes which are a sustained joke. 238/80 should be the smallest aftermarket injector available. In a "stock" tune its no different than a chipped as code truck. Maybe cooler egts though.

As stated, b codes are still cool but a hybrid can do anything and with less potentially unreliable aftermarket crap bolted up under your hood.

You can blow the heads off a stock forged rod motor with a turbo upgrade and hybrids. No aftermarket hpop. No anything else. A motor will be safe with a a code or b code because it'll tax the hpo system before any power is made.

 

[TARM]

I agree 100% on the nozzle pressure thing hybrids vs B codes or any other mix of factory injectors parts. The proof is very easy and does not take any special pressure testing etc. With the same size nozzle which flows more fuel in a given time period. Any flow bench makes this easy to prove.

Why is any of this coming up this is stuff that was hashed out 3-4 years ago in the main boards.

If you have the same size nozzle then if one injector setup can flow more fuel for a given PW at a given IP it has more pressure and thus atomization as well.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Refering to drag racing but same still applies with pulling. You need so much HP and TQ with RPM to move the weight, the longer the band is the more few feet you can move the sled once the weights on. But even then if you tq peters off back at 2800 why push it? HP is how fast you hit the wall and TQ is how far you move it. So yourr trying to use hp to push it unless you're geared to hold 3000rpm once you shift from 2nd to 3rd. My pull truck was stick so it was easier. 4th gear 4lo itd hold 2800rpm down the track as long as i blew the tires off at 5100rpm leaving

yeah, gearing is a different story.. it stays above 3k rpm and as soon as it drops below 3k at the big end I down shift back to 2nd.. on long tracks that is.. short tracks I just let it eat in 2nd.. around 3800-4krpm..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[96F350KID]

This atomization talk needs to come with the disclaimer that despite a lower perceived injection ratio, the hybrid is king here too as there arent huge hpo losses/drops across the poppet resulting in higher pressures at the tip. "Well my b codes dont lack for hpo so its not an issue". But it is. You could have made 15-20% more power with a hybrid that wasn't losing 15-20% of its oressure across the poppet each time that event took place.

If you like b codes enjoy them. If you wanna do more with less, get the 7:1 hybrid.

Nobody said you cant make power with a b code. Or an a code for that matter. Its oft spoken how a 175/80 and 200/80 are not much different in terms of overalln peak output. Fine. Point taken. However that is the exact point where returns diminish. A 200/80 a code would require dual pumps or a gen 3 to maintain the same level of performance as a 175 a code gets from a hot rodded single. And it goes down the toilet from there.

My original srp couldnt oil a set of 275 a codes. It would oil them intil about 400hp and then it flatlined. Duals would get another 40 or 50. Flatline. While smoking enough to make a 12v owner jealous. That was ten years ago or maybe even 15.(the injector tech not the hpop)

Junk. I heard so much gooogily moogily from the internet i was afraid to put hybrids in my truck. I wish id have wised up. Id have ran 250-300 with a 200% nozzle ten years ago and avoided that painful learning curve centered on 175 a codes which are a sustained joke. 238/80 should be the smallest aftermarket injector available. In a "stock" tune its no different than a chipped as code truck. Maybe cooler egts though.

As stated, b codes are still cool but a hybrid can do anything and with less potentially unreliable aftermarket crap bolted up under your hood.

You can blow the heads off a stock forged rod motor with a turbo upgrade and hybrids. No aftermarket hpop. No anything else. A motor will be safe with a a code or b code because it'll tax the hpo system before any power is made.

A lot of that also comes down to how much pulse they're being held opened at too. You could drain the rails no problem if you tuned like they used to at 4.5+ms. My B codes codes size to size compared at 400/400 made 94 more hp alone over an A code. I took a 400/400 set and ran it on the dyno at 3400psi ICP with 3.5ms. Swapped them out for a set of B codes with the same mods except the oil side and turned 94 more hp. It was done on a dynocom 5000 AWD dyno. The TQ is up another 200ish ft lbs. I started to have issues with the injectors so they were fixed and i'm trying these now 300% over nozzles. I think the 400% just dump too much fuel, its great if you spray it clean but even light load they just fueled stupid. Next week I'm going to spend a few hours at the track to dial in my slicks and get my 60' better than a 1.7

 

[Powerstroker7.3]

What size turbo are you running with those injectors if you don't mind me asking


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[96F350KID]

476sxe

 

[TyCorr]

A lot of that also comes down to how much pulse they're being held opened at too. You could drain the rails no problem if you tuned like they used to at 4.5+ms. My B codes codes size to size compared at 400/400 made 94 more hp alone over an A code. I took a 400/400 set and ran it on the dyno at 3400psi ICP with 3.5ms. Swapped them out for a set of B codes with the same mods except the oil side and turned 94 more hp. It was done on a dynocom 5000 AWD dyno. The TQ is up another 200ish ft lbs. I started to have issues with the injectors so they were fixed and i'm trying these now 300% over nozzles. I think the 400% just dump too much fuel, its great if you spray it clean but even light load they just fueled stupid. Next week I'm going to spend a few hours at the track to dial in my slicks and get my 60' better than a 1.7

I assume you meant an a code turned into a hybrid? Or where did you get a 400/400 a code?

Im not a tuner but im assuming that test could go either way depending on how the base tunes were written.

As stated, no pissing match but this was argyed about ad nauseum 5-8 years ago.