Controlling back pressure with Elite turbos

Dzchey21

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Well I'm running 150's so 2 gates might be needed. I get what your saying Dustin. I'm not building a race truck either. My truck and my buddies trucks are street trucks that get used almost daily. Overkill is my build.

So by gating both up pipes to the down pipe you have seen things to be good? What do you think when 150's are used in this setup? Hopefully Haller will post up some more.

Ya. I might need to hack my manifold up a bit to make things fit with that bigger housing. That'll come once I have a long block thou.

I think a looser housing is the way to go Shane.


Since your doing things on the floor and you have no dead line, make a bigger housing fit some how, grind the intake and the housing or whatever it takes to make it happen.

150s will be great, shone made great power with them,

Overkill, if you do the housing, run 3 gates just incase you want to spray, if you dont run the bigger housing, gate each manifold and you should be good to go.

Mal only needs 1 gate at the moment
 

White_monster

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Since your doing things on the floor and you have no dead line, make a bigger housing fit some how, grind the intake and the housing or whatever it takes to make it happen.

150s will be great, shone made great power with them,

Overkill, if you do the housing, run 3 gates just incase you want to spray, if you dont run the bigger housing, gate each manifold and you should be good to go.

Mal only needs 1 gate at the moment

Interesting. I might just do this then. Tadd feel free to chime in as you did design these turbos. Dustin I do plan to spray, that's if I ever put the truck near a track or dyno. Bigger housing and 3 gates might just happen.
 
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Fast-6.0

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Here are a couple of thoughts and info.

Of any of the max-power issues that you mention, I have only seen one atmosphere and two vgt's come back. Any other issues we have not seen to give any factual knowledge. The first VGT appeared to have been oversped as it was hammered. The 2nd VGT was only hurt due to compressor wheel damage from foriegn material from the atmosphere turbo failing. So really it didn't fail. The one atmosphere I have seen that was damaged was most definitely oversped. The comp wheel exploded so bad it cracked the compressor housing. That charger was a total loss. But that charger was on Rudy's Drag truck and was put through much more than ever designed for.

The engineer at Precision and I have discussed turbo speed and efficiency. His words were to keep it less than 155K rpm. We supply the kit with a 1.12 turbine housing. You could step up to a 1.28 but you would have to clearance your intake manifold. That is why we offer the auxillary gate kit so you dont have to grind the intake.

The gate inbetween the stages is merely a tuning tool. Dependant on many factors the charger may want no additional feed. For example when Mike and Dustin tuned Mal's truck they did not use any gating between the stages. Now changes such as a better flowing air filter or better density air could change that. My suggestion is to run the setup so the the gate between the stages is closed during initial dial-in. Get your total backpressure dialed-in, then see if driving the charger more makes more power. If you cannot keep backpressure under control then you need a larger auxiallary gate and/or a larger turbine housing.

Almost everyone has seen my video from Denver where I have the large nitrous backfire. The backfire was because the turbo failed and then boom! nitrous pop. Why did the turbo fail, NOT ENOUGH GATE. Simple, was the turbo to blame? No, I was. I oversped it! You can hear the truck come alive and its pulling hard and then the turbo said it was too much. Now let's relate that to the max-powers. A few people are trash talking the compounds because of failures. One of these people is in fact the person who dialed-in the wastegates on two of the failed systems and on one of the alleged failed systems. When I have asked for factual information, about the wastegate setup, none can ever be provided. I mean nothing. Not even a boost reading off of the atmosphere charger! I know backpressure was an issue though, which meant the wastegate system was undersized. You actually reference the picture of the system. If you keep blowing bellows, then you eliminate the bellows, then you blow the turbos. What does that tell you. Too much backpressure, not enough gate. WTF!

Shane, follow my advise and dustins. Also remember what mike haller has in his signature. "What you don't measure you can't control, and what you can't control you can't improve upon."
 

Dzchey21

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I think this is the most important part of the whole thing. hince why i asked what kinda facts pointed to "overspeed" of the atmo turbo.


Also remember what mike haller has in his signature. "What you don't measure you can't control, and what you can't control you can't improve upon."
 

mike@haller's

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what housing does your max powers have? Mals truck runs a bigger one than most others have. After countless hours and almost 200 dyno pulls. I found the gate between stages was actually hurting not helping. As of right now mal's truck runs a perfect 1 to 1 back pressure to boost until 3600 rpm. I installed a single gate off the right hand manifold that takes care of that perfectly.
uploadfromtaptalk1322962238630.jpg


If your going to use nitrous and want two gates use the factory egr pipe to get it out of the heat and down where you can actually work on it. Then do a second gate similar to what I did.

I honestly think there is still more room for improvement in this setup though.
 

Dzchey21

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shane look at this comp map, tadd says 155k rpm is ok, this is a gt47 with an 80mm wheel, do you even see 150k as an option... i dont

GT4708-compmap.jpg


gt47 with an 88mm wheel
GT4718-compmap.jpg



Now you can imagine what kinda pressure ratio it would take to overspeed, and if boost pressure wasnt over 100 psi at the manifold then i would def look into an air filter restriction...
and since we are talking about gt45 based turbos here is a billet wheel 80mm garrett

Still no where near the 155k rpm mark

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...turbogroup/performance_maps/GTX4508R-comp.jpg
 
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White_monster

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Thanks Tadd. I get it. I made this thread so I could read all the info as it's hard to discuss all this info over the phone since it would take hours. There's a good chance I'll go get Hallers to dial my gates if cost isn't retarded. Dustin's idea of a bigger housing and 3 gates is an idea. Also I started this thread to get to the bottom of all the trash talk. The info so far is helpful.

Now on my setup I'm hoping to run turbo speed sensors on both turbos and back pressure sensors on both just so I know, yes it's overkill but I don't want to lose this engine as I have way more into it than most do.
 

Dzchey21

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Thanks Tadd. I get it. I made this thread so I could read all the info as it's hard to discuss all this info over the phone since it would take hours. There's a good chance I'll go get Hallers to dial my gates if cost isn't retarded. Dustin's idea of a bigger housing and 3 gates is an idea. Also I started this thread to get to the bottom of all the trash talk. The info so far is helpful.

Now on my setup I'm hoping to run turbo speed sensors on both turbos and back pressure sensors on both just so I know, yes it's overkill but I don't want to lose this engine as I have way more into it than most do.

turbo speed guages are cool, pressure ratio's should tell you the shaft speed, but we dont have maps to compare it too, so thats the downfall.
 

mike@haller's

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My findings were also with a relatively small tune that only calls for 1.9 pulse width. A bigger tune will very well call for more gating. My findings have been that I want more speed from the turbos. Mal's high pressure only turns a 2.3 pr. And only makes a total of 55psi I think if 65-70 psi could be achieved mal's truck could be near or over 1k hp
 

blackmonster

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This info would have been nice to know about as well. It was never mentioned to me also!
 

White_monster

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Thanks Mike and Dustin. I'm gonna put a Build list up with a tune and see what your guts idea is. I wanna do this right the first time if at all possible. So here goes the list:

Max powers - housing change as needed for the big turbo.
Dual gates - 3rd gate if needed. One gate dumps between the housings now but that sounds like it should be changed to dump to the down pipe.
150 nozzles - I have 110's but I would prefer to run 150's
Eric's tunes - I'd like to run street or x street for daily use unless I can run a larger pulse width. Smoke isn't the biggest concern to me but the less smoke the better. I do have a dashdaq that's 3yrs old and not updated so KEM could live tune on that as well.

I want to be able to run this setup for the moat part and at times I want to be able to throw the juice to her and run an aggressive tune without really worrying about it, yes I still need to watch the gauges. Mike and Dustin what's the best way to make this a reality. I'm not a turbo sizing genius by any means, hell I'm still learning. If I need to make a bigger housing fit then so be it I'll make it happen, time isn't the issue. Keep the info coming.
 

Dzchey21

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Thanks Mike and Dustin. I'm gonna put a Build list up with a tune and see what your guts idea is. I wanna do this right the first time if at all possible. So here goes the list:

Max powers - housing change as needed for the big turbo.
Dual gates - 3rd gate if needed. One gate dumps between the housings now but that sounds like it should be changed to dump to the down pipe.
150 nozzles - I have 110's but I would prefer to run 150's
Eric's tunes - I'd like to run street or x street for daily use unless I can run a larger pulse width. Smoke isn't the biggest concern to me but the less smoke the better. I do have a dashdaq that's 3yrs old and not updated so KEM could live tune on that as well.

I want to be able to run this setup for the moat part and at times I want to be able to throw the juice to her and run an aggressive tune without really worrying about it, yes I still need to watch the gauges. Mike and Dustin what's the best way to make this a reality. I'm not a turbo sizing genius by any means, hell I'm still learning. If I need to make a bigger housing fit then so be it I'll make it happen, time isn't the issue. Keep the info coming.

The first thing I would do on a spare motor or whatever you can is see what's the biggest turbine housing you can run on the low pressure.

If you can squeeze a 1.32 housing on it go for it. And then run 3 gates. If you can't and 1.28 is the biggest then just run the two gates on the manifolds like we talked and be done.

Kem is going to be your best bet for a daily driver tune. Innovative for the race and dyno.

Then basically tune the gate for fuel and then tune the second manifold gate for nitrous. Baby steps when you first get it running and dial things slowly.
 

Dzchey21

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I totally agree mike. I think there is more to be had in tuning with the vgt's.

I think there is alot to be said about this comment.

I think turbo speed gauges, and then live tuning would show that the vgt duty cycles need to stay a little higher on these set ups to keep the back pressure up a little bit under part throttle and cruising speeds, i think towing would be better as well as street manners, but pushing that WITHOUT proper info could spell disaster
 

White_monster

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The first thing I would do on a spare motor or whatever you can is see what's the biggest turbine housing you can run on the low pressure.

If you can squeeze a 1.32 housing on it go for it. And then run 3 gates. If you can't and 1.28 is the biggest then just run the two gates on the manifolds like we talked and be done.

Kem is going to be your best bet for a daily driver tune. Innovative for the race and dyno.

Then basically tune the gate for fuel and then tune the second manifold gate for nitrous. Baby steps when you first get it running and dial things slowly.

Alright. When the time comes I'll locate a couple housings and see what fits. So if I can squeeze the 1.32 housing then run a gate off each manifold to the down pipe and 1 gate from between the turbos to the down pipe. That's what your thinking right? Why not do this for the 1.28 housing?
 

Dzchey21

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Alright. When the time comes I'll locate a couple housings and see what fits. So if I can squeeze the 1.32 housing then run a gate off each manifold to the down pipe and 1 gate from between the turbos to the down pipe. That's what your thinking right? Why not do this for the 1.28 housing?

Correct. Mal has the 1.28 housing and with 110s its not big enough, so i can imagine that a 1.32 might be, but even better would be a 1.44 housing, but i don't think thats going to clear the intake
 

White_monster

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I think there is alot to be said about this comment.

I think turbo speed gauges, and then live tuning would show that the vgt duty cycles need to stay a little higher on these set ups to keep the back pressure up a little bit under part throttle and cruising speeds, i think towing would be better as well as street manners, but pushing that WITHOUT proper info could spell disaster

Another reason I want a datalogger in my truck. If I can log just regular driving and pass the logs on to ppl that are tuning we may just get things done faster. The turbo speed sensors are something I want, curious what is happening, also what you don't know you can't fix or prevent.
 

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