FFD Rail System

[lincolnlocker]

Correct, but that is the period in which the interesting things are happening correct? Plunger moves down, volume of oil cavity increases, fuel is pressurized and exits the injector, power is made. Valve closes, plunger moves back into position and oil is expelled so that the process can happen again. That volume change is the flow, or "loss", that the pump is trying to keep up with.



Bigger oil cavity volumes mean more fuel exits or more injection pressure is built, both of which are what we are after for power generation.

Correct. Being able to keep pressure up at the injector is the key factor. It does relieve pressure when it opens and closes to create bleedoff. But maintaining those pressures are easier to do with a smaller space to do it in.. like i said, volume isn't being effected enough to hinder performance. Pressures are more consistent and stable to allow for the bigger injectors to be ran with half the pump it normally would take to run those injectors. Not dual pumps or gen 3.. Unless they are drastically detuned to hold icp at which i doubt they would run the way they do or even run well at all.


Im sure they have icp, dc, and pw numbers to show for it. If they posted that alone then we would know.

live life full throttle

 

[1badpsd]

Y'all are over thinking a lot of this. to go along with the fire hose analogy, with how the hpo system is designed you have a garden hose feeding a fire hose then reducing back to a garden hose with a nozzle on the end. You turn the water on and it fills the system...great! But once you open the nozzle the pressure begins to drop because you're loosing pressure in the large hose. You aren't pouring anything out and waiting for it to fill back up you are simply loosing pressure in a constant pressurized chamber, you remove the fire hose and put a garden hose all the way to the nozzle you now sustain a higher PSI at the nozzle.

 

[andharri]

Correct. Being able to keep pressure up at the injector is the key factor. It does relieve pressure when it opens and closes to create bleedoff. But maintaining those pressures are easier to do with a smaller space to do it in.. like i said, volume isn't being effected enough to hinder performance. Pressures are more consistent and stable to allow for the bigger injectors to be ran with half the pump it normally would take to run those injectors. Not dual pumps or gen 3.. Unless they are drastically detuned to hold icp at which i doubt they would run the way they do or even run well at all.


Im sure they have icp, dc, and pw numbers to show for it. If they posted that alone then we would know.

live life full throttle

The volume change may not be enough to hinder, but the concept is just counter to what is described by general fluid dynamics. I'm in for some data, like someone mentioned earlier, before and after dyno runs with the product would tell the story.

 

[andharri]

Y'all are over thinking a lot of this. to go along with the fire hose analogy, with how the hpo system is designed you have a garden hose feeding a fire hose then reducing back to a garden hose with a nozzle on the end. You turn the water on and it fills the system...great! But once you open the nozzle the pressure begins to drop because you're loosing pressure in the large hose. You aren't pouring anything out and waiting for it to fill back up you are simply loosing pressure in a constant pressurized chamber, you remove the fire hose and put a garden hose all the way to the nozzle you now sustain a higher PSI at the nozzle.

If you aren't "pouring anything out" and its a "constant pressurized chamber" then the pressure is constant throughout the filled volume. That's how hydraulics work with no flow.

 

[lincolnlocker]

The volume change may not be enough to hinder, but the concept is just counter to what is described by general fluid dynamics. I'm in for some data, like someone mentioned earlier, before and after dyno runs with the product would tell the story.

I have seen crazier chit man. I get where you are coming from. I threw logical thinking out the window years ago after i started dealing with heui 7.3s.. lol

live life full throttle

 

[Swaan]

Heui injectors need constant pressure at a set volume to perform and the fuel delivery to do the same.

Yes volume declines with a larger hose but pressure builds higher with a smaller hose. Its not like they are drastically changing volume bu adding that plug. But making it easier to supply just enough volume but sustain pressures more easily and consistently.

live life full throttle

With volume comes pressure. If your pump cant keep up with the volume the injectors demand the pressure goes down. By making restrictions in the oil manifold to keep pressures up does nothing for the injectors demand of oil.

There is nothing in the system that is using oil other then what is released out the spill ports on the injectors. Nothing, not oil rails,lines or ports. What goes out must go in. No 2 ways about it. It is irrelevant what size the system is, it all comes down to the output of the pump to the required CCs the intensifier piston requires per stroke and RPM.

If you want to dress up a 3 into a 9 by making the ecm happy with restrictions causing presuure then I guess you succeed.
Hey no codes my high pressure oil system must be happy !!!!

 

[lincolnlocker]

With volume comes pressure. If your pump cant keep up with the volume the injectors demand the pressure goes down. By making restrictions in the oil manifold to keep pressures up does nothing for the injectors demand of oil.



There is nothing in the system that is using oil other then what is released out the spill ports on the injectors. Nothing, not oil rails,lines or ports. What goes out must go in. No 2 ways about it. It is irrelevant what size the system is, it all comes down to the output of the pump to the required CCs the intensifier piston requires per stroke and RPM.



If you want to dress up a 3 into a 9 by making the ecm happy with restrictions causing presuure then I guess you succeed.

Hey no codes my high pressure oil system must be happy !!!!

Tell me how many engines run well enough to push a 400/anything with just 1 hpop let alone an adrenaline?

live life full throttle

 

[Bluemule]

With volume comes pressure. If your pump cant keep up with the volume the injectors demand the pressure goes down. By making restrictions in the oil manifold to keep pressures up does nothing for the injectors demand of oil.

There is nothing in the system that is using oil other then what is released out the spill ports on the injectors. Nothing, not oil rails,lines or ports. What goes out must go in. No 2 ways about it. It is irrelevant what size the system is, it all comes down to the output of the pump to the required CCs the intensifier piston requires per stroke and RPM.

If you want to dress up a 3 into a 9 by making the ecm happy with restrictions causing presuure then I guess you succeed.
Hey no codes my high pressure oil system must be happy !!!!

So, if the area, (A), of a section of pipe decreases, the speed,
(v), of the liquid there must increase so that the product, remains the same. This means that fluids speed up when they reach a narrow section of a pipe and slow down when they reach a wider section of a pipe. This matches everyday experience—think about what happens if you block a portion of the water hose with your thumb, effectively reducing its area,
The water must come out with higher speed,
(V), to ensure the volume flow rate, remains the same. This is why narrow nozzles, which reduce the area attached to water hoses cause a significant increase in the speed, of the fluid at that point.
It’s simple physics, injectors need both volume and pressure to operate properly , with this product yes you’re increasing the pressure making the ecu happy but there’s nothing registering flow. Decrease size increase pressure but bottom line is there’s still the same amount of volume exiting and entering and with having the stock pump still, there’s no increase in volume and it’s just playing a trick on the ecu, run that with a stock pump daily for 20k with 350/200 and those injectors/ pump won’t be happy .So yes swanny you’re technically right

 

[blacksmoke.r.us]

You are right that equation is for a steady state system and any real system is dynamic, like the operation of an engine.

However, the ways in which pressure, radius, and volumetric flow rate are related are all described from the general Navier-Stokes relation, from which Hagen-Poiseuille can be derived, and nonetheless exhibit similar tendencies in regards to changes in one affecting the other (the strength of the relationship with radius can vary depending on geometry).

I think FFD does a great job as well, however this particular product just isn't jiving with what I know about fluid dynamics or how the 7.3l oil system operates.

EDIT: "If you increase the radius of the pipe it makes for a larger area. A larger area means more volume. More volume means you need more pump to make up the difference.

If you decrease the total volume needed then you need less pump to meet demand."

This is not necessarily true because the volume that the pump is making up is the volume that is lost through the hose, or flows through it (the volumetric flow rate). The flow rate is really determined in this system by the injector demand, not the pipe or log that feeds it. Therefore, the system volume doesn't matter as much as the flow rate, which is determined by the injectors and the programming.

Its still for a static static system regardless if the Navier-Stokes equation correlates.

You are right if you have a bigger area by increasing the radius of the pipe you need more volume out of the pump to meet the demand. That is exactly what the new rails do or the opposite. The creat less area making less volume needed from the pump.

Like stated befor. If you have a 5 gallon bucket and you have a staric flow rate it takes a X amount of time to fill. If you put a rock in there any size it displaces a certain amount of water. Thefore needing less time to fill the 5 gallon bucket. Thats what the FFD rail does it displaces a certain amount of volume or area whatever you want to call it which takes less pump to meet the demand of the injector.

 

[andharri]

Its still for a static static system regardless if the Navier-Stokes equation correlates.

You are right if you have a bigger area by increasing the radius of the pipe you need more volume out of the pump to meet the demand. That is exactly what the new rails do or the opposite. The creat less area making less volume needed from the pump.

Like stated befor. If you have a 5 gallon bucket and you have a staric flow rate it takes a X amount of time to fill. If you put a rock in there any size it displaces a certain amount of water. Thefore needing less time to fill the 5 gallon bucket. Thats what the FFD rail does it displaces a certain amount of volume or area whatever you want to call it which takes less pump to meet the demand of the injector.

All i'm saying is the bucket you're trying to fill is the injector, not the log. You'd need to add your rock there to have that effect. The volume of oil that the pump is filling is in the injector, not the log. The log is already full.

EDIT: The hose doesn't create the need, but it can limit the ability to meet the need.

 

[Zeb]

This thread is hilarious.
Someone needs to spend $300, a half a day on the dyno, and end this.....

 

[blacksmoke.r.us]

All i'm saying is the bucket you're trying to fill is the injector, not the log. You'd need to add your rock there to have that effect. The volume of oil that the pump is filling is in the injector, not the log. The log is already full.

EDIT: The hose doesn't create the need, but it can limit the ability to meet the need.

The bucket is the entire hpo system including the injector

 

[Swaan]

All i'm saying is the bucket you're trying to fill is the injector, not the log. You'd need to add your rock there to have that effect. The volume of oil that the pump is filling is in the injector, not the log. The log is already full.

EDIT: The hose doesn't create the need, but it can limit the ability to meet the need.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

People need to realize the log is already full.

 

[blacksmoke.r.us]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

People need to realize the log is already full.

The whole system has a given volume. Even when you upradge. The injectors are the only part of the system that adds volume to the systme. Thats why you need more volume from the pump.

This idea takes up volume in the system.

 

[blacksmoke.r.us]

This thread is hilarious.
Someone needs to spend $300, a half a day on the dyno, and end this.....

I am sure FFD already did this. Lol!

 

[Zeb]

I am sure FFD already did this. Lol!

I’m sure they did, but independent results might be what some people need to see!

 

[lincolnlocker]

The bucket is the entire hpo system including the injector

Correct..

live life full throttle

 

[Swaan]

The bucket is the entire hpo system including the injector

Wrong. The system is essentially the hose and pump. The bucket is the injector . Think of the bucket as if it has holes in it. The hose has to be big enough to supply the volume going out the holes in the bucket.

I feel like I'm explaining this to a bunch addolecent children.

 

[psduser1]

Wrong. The system is essentially the hose and pump. The bucket is the injector . Think of the bucket as if it has holes in it. The hose has to be big enough to supply the volume going out the holes in the bucket.

I feel like I'm explaining this to a bunch addolecent children.

Lol, easy, killer.
Technically, you are correct. In the real world, this could help in certain situations, possibly full on race applications? Seems like the manufacturer is making it work, fwiw.
I think the sales pitch and the actual effect are not directly correlated, lol.
The advert specifically says "will help maintain pressure", and then gives a distinct example. Neither one of you is completely wrong, but one of you is more factually correct, lol.
It is a give and take with a heui setup, and this is an alternative to what has been offered to run big injectors in the past.

Having said that, I cant say I'd buy one myself. :lookaround:

 

[lincolnlocker]

Wrong. The system is essentially the hose and pump. The bucket is the injector . Think of the bucket as if it has holes in it. The hose has to be big enough to supply the volume going out the holes in the bucket.

I feel like I'm explaining this to a bunch addolecent children.

Except its not a free flow system.. the injector opens and closes. so when it is closed the pressure stays more consistent.

live life full throttle