Extended Power
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This seems to be a huge deal for anyone to do....lol.
H-11 torque numbers on the 6.0L
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07_powerstroke
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Still no one measured the arp's couldnt you just call arp and ask them?
I actually remembered to bring a stud in today! It's sitting right here on my desk, just have to get back to inspection and get it measured. Just haven't had a free moment to break away to do so yet, but I should have it before days end.
Again, even if the TPI is different, it's only part of the equation. Stud stretch has more variables than just TPI... the strength of the material being used should play a factor too, as a higher tensile strength won't deform as much...
I am going to talk to one of the engineers today on our hydraulics line and ask him about this more in depth. See if we can get to the bottom of this.
Again, even if the TPI is different, it's only part of the equation. Stud stretch has more variables than just TPI... the strength of the material being used should play a factor too, as a higher tensile strength won't deform as much...
I am going to talk to one of the engineers today on our hydraulics line and ask him about this more in depth. See if we can get to the bottom of this.
Now you tell us.... :doh: haha
Wayne
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http://www.elitedieselengineering.com/product/13005000/HD-Custom-Age-625-Head-Stud-Kit/
...if you're going for the ultimate in clamping force. It's all in the material. I've had great luck with ford gaskets (not one single warranty to date) and Elite specs on H-11 studs including a couple 700+ hp 6.0's, 2 with compounds, one with a ton of nitrous FWIW. I've also seen H-11's perfectly installed on near stock motors using the "black onyx" gaskets with failures. Upon disassembly I re-verified stud torque, and found it to still be 175+ ft/lbs, but the gasket eroded away allowing leakage.
Technically there's no need to cycle or "season" the studs on installation if they've been done before, but I do it anyway for my own peace of mind. Also remember to loosen, and re-tighten them one at a time to prevent the gasket seal from breaking caused by loosening them all at once. I would also do the seasoning process on ARP's if I ever did install them. Good luck with the build.
...if you're going for the ultimate in clamping force. It's all in the material. I've had great luck with ford gaskets (not one single warranty to date) and Elite specs on H-11 studs including a couple 700+ hp 6.0's, 2 with compounds, one with a ton of nitrous FWIW. I've also seen H-11's perfectly installed on near stock motors using the "black onyx" gaskets with failures. Upon disassembly I re-verified stud torque, and found it to still be 175+ ft/lbs, but the gasket eroded away allowing leakage.
Technically there's no need to cycle or "season" the studs on installation if they've been done before, but I do it anyway for my own peace of mind. Also remember to loosen, and re-tighten them one at a time to prevent the gasket seal from breaking caused by loosening them all at once. I would also do the seasoning process on ARP's if I ever did install them. Good luck with the build.
Am I reading this right? Are you suggesting the pull one at a time and replace method with the studs?
Extended Power
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No...when you are installing the studs...
Everything is in place, all the nuts are on loosely by hand, then you torque them down in sequence to 90 ftlbs...then, one at a time, back it off about half a turn, and then torque it back up to 90ftlbs again.
Then do the same thing again...
Once they are all torqued back to the 90ftlbs (for the third time)...torque them down in sequence to 130ftlbs.
Once you have them all torqued down at 130ftlbs...torque them down to 175 ftlbs in the proper sequence.
Extended Power
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People can say whatever they want...I have had every combination fail so far, except for what I am trying now.( and it still has to be proven yet.)
Stock ford head gaskets with stock bolts. Failed after 183000+kms and Eric's tunes.
Stock ford head gaskets with resurfaced heads and block and new ARPs.
Victor Reinz head gaskets and new H-11's. New resurfaced heads as well. Failed a week and a half after installing twins. (lasted a year and a half before that while running a single turbo, and mostly stock injectors, but had 190's in too.)
This time, I am using the H-11's with stock ford head gaskets, and again....fresh heads.
Stock ford head gaskets with stock bolts. Failed after 183000+kms and Eric's tunes.
Stock ford head gaskets with resurfaced heads and block and new ARPs.
Victor Reinz head gaskets and new H-11's. New resurfaced heads as well. Failed a week and a half after installing twins. (lasted a year and a half before that while running a single turbo, and mostly stock injectors, but had 190's in too.)
This time, I am using the H-11's with stock ford head gaskets, and again....fresh heads.
I'm aware of the procedure myself, I just wasn't reading his post right I guess. I read it quick and it sounded like he was talking about taking one bolt out at a time and putting a stud in "to not break the seal" just misinterpreted...
That's discouraging man. What combo of parts were you running when you blew the OEM gaskets with surfaced heads/block and ARP's? (turbo/injectors?)
SINNER
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Lots of misinformation in this thread. The clamping force of a fastener has 0 to do with the torque it is tightened to, thread pitch, or even the lube used. It is directly related to the material and at what point in it's preload it reaches it's elasticity.
That simple fact is why I laugh when I hear people saying "I took it 50ft. lbs past it's spec so it will clamp down harder". No , you took it past it's elastic range and ruined the fastener. The inherent design of an engine that uses TTY fasteners is a cost saving measure that exploits the higher clamping loads associated with a PROPERLY DESIGNED torque-to-yeild bolt/stud. At the designed power levels of the engine it is a good design. When you try to triple or even quadruple the power output of the engine the shortcomings of the design shows itself. Bottom line is there is no magic cure all for a lack of head bolts at elevated levels. At elevated power levels the material used in the head itself deflects from the extreme spacing between the studs. I had even looked into having a billet rocker box made to increase the rigidity of the head but the costs were insane. I went through 2 sets of A1 studs and 3 sets of new heads, 2 of those fire ringed in 2005.
Also the only job the lube does is to keep the fasgtener from binding and twisting during the install. Right back to the elastic range. Fasteners are much more susceptible to damage from exceeding the elastic range when twisted than when stretched lengthwise. Placing a band aid on a axe wound never works....
That simple fact is why I laugh when I hear people saying "I took it 50ft. lbs past it's spec so it will clamp down harder". No , you took it past it's elastic range and ruined the fastener. The inherent design of an engine that uses TTY fasteners is a cost saving measure that exploits the higher clamping loads associated with a PROPERLY DESIGNED torque-to-yeild bolt/stud. At the designed power levels of the engine it is a good design. When you try to triple or even quadruple the power output of the engine the shortcomings of the design shows itself. Bottom line is there is no magic cure all for a lack of head bolts at elevated levels. At elevated power levels the material used in the head itself deflects from the extreme spacing between the studs. I had even looked into having a billet rocker box made to increase the rigidity of the head but the costs were insane. I went through 2 sets of A1 studs and 3 sets of new heads, 2 of those fire ringed in 2005.
Also the only job the lube does is to keep the fasgtener from binding and twisting during the install. Right back to the elastic range. Fasteners are much more susceptible to damage from exceeding the elastic range when twisted than when stretched lengthwise. Placing a band aid on a axe wound never works....
Extended Power
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I was running 225cc injectors, and a Turbonetic's 66mm turbo...
It ran a 12.9 at 103.5, so it wasn't all bad.
Pulling the holiday trailer was were it sucked....13-1400*F on flat ground...down to around 1-1100*F when the turbo lit. (around 85mph)
Extended Power
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To Sinner: why did ARP change the torque specs on their studs from 245 to 210? Because of their new lube, or because they have no idea where the elastic range is of their studs?
I've never really heard of fire-rings working on a 6.0 at all... and I disagree about the lube being used. Saying the clamping force has 0 to do with pitch/torque amount/lube, I couldn't disagree more. It has SOMETHING to do with it.
I agree with your other comments. More torque doesn't always mean better. While the 4 bolt per cylinder design isn't the greatest, the guys making over 1000rwhp and not blowing gaskets would probably argue some of your points though huh?
Were you monitoring backpressure at all out of curiosity? What were the turbo specs? I remember reading about some of your setups, but it seems like they were changed often too.
Exactly. I had a lengthy discussion with an ARP engineer about all of this. It was good info.
smokinstroker
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Ivan the fastest that 66 got you was 12.9!?
Running 205s with elites SS I ran 12.7 and that was with a 6" lift??
Running 205s with elites SS I ran 12.7 and that was with a 6" lift??
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It was an open turbine housing, non-gated.
Eric tried live tuning it in Emonton, but it was at a 2:1 ratio for drive to boost...40 psi boost to 80psi drive. It needed a gate bad.
And this was back in 2008, so I hope that they have made improvements with tuning, turbos, etc since then.
Extended Power
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Sure it did...and that's why the victor reinz gaskets blew when the drive pressure was 100 psi, and the boost was 80.
Even with perfect 1:1 ratio, they still need to be able to hold the pressure. (80psi drive to 80psi boost)
