injector capability, tuning stand point

[Charles]

A good running truck will make more power at 1ms of pw than 99.99% of people running anything less than a 100% nozzle will ever make.

And do it while smoking less and running cooler...

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...


Small nozzles are a fools game. I'm sorry I ever tried to advocate them years ago.


For some numbers, I would plan to inject ALL of my fuel sub 1.5ms for a clean burn. Sub 2ms for good power with acceptable hazing, and sub 2.5 as an absolute smoky pig cap.

A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

A 200% nozzle do that same power, there and higher while smoking nearly none, and running cooler at all points. Plus it will pull up to and as some have shown, over 600rwhp if desired.

A 100% nozzle should be the minimum size aftermarket offering. And given the choice, I would go 200% min every time. They should have come with a 200 from the factory, lol.


But that's just me. Right now I'm running 400/400's with a 94mm first stage charger on a single 15* pump and spinning tires everywhere with very little smoke at all.

 

[907DAVE]

Soo...

The truck is up and running again?

 

[under pressure]

Mine isnt....

Fried pcm j3 port(getting pcm flashed) replace water pump (flush system) and add billet WW all this week. One thing after another......

 

[TyCorr]

A good running truck will make more power at 1ms of pw than 99.99% of people running anything less than a 100% nozzle will ever make.

And do it while smoking less and running cooler...

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...


Small nozzles are a fools game. I'm sorry I ever tried to advocate them years ago.


For some numbers, I would plan to inject ALL of my fuel sub 1.5ms for a clean burn. Sub 2ms for good power with acceptable hazing, and sub 2.5 as an absolute smoky pig cap.

A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

A 200% nozzle do that same power, there and higher while smoking nearly none, and running cooler at all points. Plus it will pull up to and as some have shown, over 600rwhp if desired.

A 100% nozzle should be the minimum size aftermarket offering. And given the choice, I would go 200% min every time. They should have come with a 200 from the factory, lol.


But that's just me. Right now I'm running 400/400's with a 94mm first stage charger on a single 15* pump and spinning tires everywhere with very little smoke at all.

I believe thats exactly what I discovered. Maximum pw @2.5ms a 175/80 was smoky and just did not.feel like it was working for me. Seemed like I.was pushing everything to the limit to make 425 hp. Sure it moved better than a stock truck. I ran that setup for 4k miles and swapped to a.100 over edm nozzle and running LESS pw the truck ran cooler and made ever so slightly more power. The idle just was never there. The 80% nozzles idled like.stock, smooth.

***k those injectors, on all counts. Less than 10k miles and I know they arent my.cup of tea. Ive got a set of 275cc hybrids waiting for 200% nozzles to go in the motor Ive got.on the stand. We shall see what happens.

 

[lincolnlocker]

A good running truck will make more power at 1ms of pw than 99.99% of people running anything less than a 100% nozzle will ever make.

And do it while smoking less and running cooler...

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...


Small nozzles are a fools game. I'm sorry I ever tried to advocate them years ago.


For some numbers, I would plan to inject ALL of my fuel sub 1.5ms for a clean burn. Sub 2ms for good power with acceptable hazing, and sub 2.5 as an absolute smoky pig cap.

A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

A 200% nozzle do that same power, there and higher while smoking nearly none, and running cooler at all points. Plus it will pull up to and as some have shown, over 600rwhp if desired.

A 100% nozzle should be the minimum size aftermarket offering. And given the choice, I would go 200% min every time. They should have come with a 200 from the factory, lol.


But that's just me. Right now I'm running 400/400's with a 94mm first stage charger on a single 15* pump and spinning tires everywhere with very little smoke at all.

great info right there!

live life full throttle

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

A good running truck will make more power at 1ms of pw than 99.99% of people running anything less than a 100% nozzle will ever make.

And do it while smoking less and running cooler...

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...


Small nozzles are a fools game. I'm sorry I ever tried to advocate them years ago.


For some numbers, I would plan to inject ALL of my fuel sub 1.5ms for a clean burn. Sub 2ms for good power with acceptable hazing, and sub 2.5 as an absolute smoky pig cap.

A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

A 200% nozzle do that same power, there and higher while smoking nearly none, and running cooler at all points. Plus it will pull up to and as some have shown, over 600rwhp if desired.

A 100% nozzle should be the minimum size aftermarket offering. And given the choice, I would go 200% min every time. They should have come with a 200 from the factory, lol.


But that's just me. Right now I'm running 400/400's with a 94mm first stage charger on a single 15* pump and spinning tires everywhere with very little smoke at all.

And to think all those years ago I used to sit back and read your posts about how all anyone needs is a slight EH nozzle and say they have it all wrong. In fact you did have a good idea. I was the same way, thinking nothing more than the shortest possible PW the better. In fact I still believe that but have found that for 75% of people buying injectors that is totally off. I used to build and mod injectors with the sole idea of max fuel per shortest time. This is the idea, but for the smaller % of people that buy for performance as their first goal. For anyone that is wanting to use the heui system and make descent power start with nothing smaller than a 300/200 injector. And even that has its drawbacks.

The person looking in the 160-175cc range is not the hot rod drag racer. Can you make descent power with that amount of fuel, sure. But you are more interested in towing, daily driving and economy. I know because those are the three things they ask for when they buy these injectors.

Now I would like to add some of my experiences to your comments you made.

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...

I cannot agree with this as I have no experience with 300 nozzle a 400 nozzle with not flow more than a common stage 1 injector at that PW. So please clarify what move out means.


A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

This I do agree with somewhat. At 2500 rpm the 30% nozzle is just about done. Flow will begin to drop with an injector size of 175cc. That is why they are such a good combo for the daily driven towing crowd. 500hp? I haven't seen it done yet but do agree it should be possible with the "right" setup. Hope to see it soon actually. Smokey? That will be dependent upon a lot of factors, tuning, turbo, hpop. The 30% nozzle with a small amount of fuel has no reason to be smokey. Again if the right setup is used. If the wrong setup,is used even AD's can be a smokey setup.

My point is I know what I see operational wise and I know what sells. The 160/30 and the 300/200 are by far the most popular injector sizes I sell. And those are the two major types of people that order injectors. And after they install and run them, they comment that is exactly what they wanted from an injector.

 

[Charles]

And to think all those years ago I used to sit back and read your posts about how all anyone needs is a slight EH nozzle and say they have it all wrong. In fact you did have a good idea. I was the same way, thinking nothing more than the shortest possible PW the better. In fact I still believe that but have found that for 75% of people buying injectors that is totally off. I used to build and mod injectors with the sole idea of max fuel per shortest time. This is the idea, but for the smaller % of people that buy for performance as their first goal. For anyone that is wanting to use the heui system and make descent power start with nothing smaller than a 300/200 injector. And even that has its drawbacks.

The person looking in the 160-175cc range is not the hot rod drag racer. Can you make descent power with that amount of fuel, sure. But you are more interested in towing, daily driving and economy. I know because those are the three things they ask for when they buy these injectors.

Towing requires a much larger injector nozzle than cruising does. If not, then the stock DT 530 at 2xxhp wouldn't use a nozzle that we routinely made mid 500's with on a set of BD's. Even though that engine was only designed for maybe 300hp, it still got a set of nozzles that would pull mid 5's on fuel way back when, because that was the most efficient way to make that power. A stock 7 hole powerstroke nozzle for instance is probably optimized for like 100hp, which is what most superduty's probably make the most, if that in reality, on the road, cruising around.

Now I would like to add some of my experiences to your comments you made.

A 300 to 400% nozzle will move out at say 1.3ms. Move OUT...

I cannot agree with this as I have no experience with 300 nozzle a 400 nozzle with not flow more than a common stage 1 injector at that PW. So please clarify what move out means.

It means spinning tires and leaving sportscars in your wake.

A 30% nozzle at 2500rpm is going to max at probably 500rwhp and be smoking heavily and pull power peak at 3000 or so unless you artificially lower it there to have it "peak" higher.

This I do agree with somewhat. At 2500 rpm the 30% nozzle is just about done. Flow will begin to drop with an injector size of 175cc. That is why they are such a good combo for the daily driven towing crowd. 500hp? I haven't seen it done yet but do agree it should be possible with the "right" setup. Hope to see it soon actually.

I pulled 544rwhp on the Dynojet with 30% nozzles in 2007.

Smokey? That will be dependent upon a lot of factors, tuning, turbo, hpop. The 30% nozzle with a small amount of fuel has no reason to be smokey. Again if the right setup is used. If the wrong setup,is used even AD's can be a smokey setup.

Smokey at that power level (500hp). REAL.... smokey. Whereas a 200% EDM for instance, at the exact same power level can leave no visible smoke in the mirror at all, while running hundreds of degrees lower EGT.

My point is I know what I see operational wise and I know what sells. The 160/30 and the 300/200 are by far the most popular injector sizes I sell. And those are the two major types of people that order injectors. And after they install and run them, they comment that is exactly what they wanted from an injector.

If the programming existed in mass, like it finally seems to for those combos you mentioned, you would have people towing and such that would be even more grateful to run something like a 160/200 instead. But since no selection of programs are readily available for such a combo, it gets bypassed altogether.

 

[under pressure]

Im still under the impression one needs more oil for the larger nozzles. But seems a large nozzle and less PW would require less hpo oil in return keeping icp up ?

 

[Charles]

Im still under the impression one needs more oil for the larger nozzles. But seems a large nozzle and less PW would require less hpo oil in return keeping icp up ?

It's immaterial. Oil volume is determined by the injection quantity you deliver. If you deliver 160cc in 4ms you use no more and no less oil than if you deliver 160cc in 1.5ms.

Otherwise my truck wouldn't even move right now with 400% nozzles and a bone stock, used 15* hpop. But in reality it breaks traction from a roll and would outrun plenty of trucks just fine.

 

[CSIPSD]

Im still under the impression one needs more oil for the larger nozzles. But seems a large nozzle and less PW would require less hpo oil in return keeping icp up ?

Larger nozzle allows for shorter PW, which uses les HPO then a smaller nozzle with a laid out PW.

 

[TyCorr]

It's immaterial. Oil volume is determined by the injection quantity you deliver. If you deliver 160cc in 4ms you use no more and no less oil than if you deliver 160cc in 1.5ms.

Otherwise my truck wouldn't even move right now with 400% nozzles and a bone stock, used 15* hpop. But in reality it breaks traction from a roll and would outrun plenty of trucks just fine.

Running only a 15° pump? Or in a gen 3 setup?

 

[JCart]

If the programming existed in mass, like it finally seems to for those combos you mentioned, you would have people towing and such that would be even more grateful to run something like a 160/200 instead. But since no selection of programs are readily available for such a combo, it gets bypassed altogether.

Why is there no mention of small injectors with larger (200% and over) nozzles? And no files for this type of set up? I always assumed the volume per time would be serviced by say a 100% nozzle adequately and that a larger nozzle (over 100%) would inject too quickly and result in poor combustion, caused by poor atomization. I also held the notion that you needed a specified injection time say 4ms to unload 160cc and anything shorter (read bigger nozzle) would impact combustion negatively.

What you are saying Charles if I understand correctly is you feel the shorter the injection time the better? I clearly have a poor understanding of this and if you could share your insights would appreciate it.

thanks,

jrc

 

[under pressure]

I would think.... which may hurt !
A larger nozzle will require a higher icp for a proper spray pattern, even though at a shorter PW it would still tax the system, on the other end, a smaller nozzle would require less icp and a longer PW still taxing, The differece being heat ? is this accurate.

 

[lincolnlocker]

how come no one has tried the 160/200 combo? or they did a while back and said it wouldn't work and no one has tried since?

 

[under pressure]

I wish the tuners and builders would answer more of these questions. Realistically, any injector combo getting live tuned will be able to max out its capabilities it would seem. The 200/200 comes to mind.

Me personally, i want the most injector for the money and it must perform on a stockish hpop.
My goal is to just have a strong running street truck, capable of pulling at the track for fun.
For me thats about 430 hp +/-
So if 500 + hp can be had on a 30% nozzle, that doesnt sound like a bad option for some at the price..

 

[Shaw]

Im no expert by any means, but basically the quicker the injection event the better, with in reason.

If you take a stock or 30% nozzle, it might take say 3ms to get 150 cc of fuel out at 2500icp. You have to hold the pw longer and that affects combustion from my understanding because of the fuel slowly spraying in.

Take a 200 or 400% nozzle and it might take say 1.3 to 1.5 ms to get 150cc of fuel out at 2500icp. You can get the fuel in quicker and let it do its thing. This helps combustion.

Hopefully Charles can use his gift of explaining things as only he can and will elaborate more on it.

 

[golfer]

I'm running a set of 200/200's...

this combo dynoed 548rhwp on a stock HPOP.

The 200% nozzle is really THE perfect nozzle for anything from 300rwhp to 600rwhp...but you do give up atomization at lower ICP pressures which can negatively impact fuel economy, and increase off-boost smoke.

We haven't seen anything worth a chit from the 80% or the 100% nozzles, quite honestly...the 30%'s are crisp and clean...and will knock down low to mid 400s with small turbo upgrades...without the fuel efficiency penalty of the larger nozzles...

from a technical standpoint, we use large(r) nozzles for engines that need to make power AT a higher rpm range...

a larger nozzle allows more fuel to be injected into the cylinder, more quickly...and with the ever shrinking 'mechanical' injection window (with increase in rpm), 'large' nozzles simply become a necessity for making power at high rpm.

we also tend to use smaller nozzles on more street/tow/fuel efficient oriented vehicles, unless the customer prefers a larger nozzle to support future plans & upgrades for the vehicle.

Looking at the engine combustion process, and considering things like, volume of fuel injected, piston speed (rpm), timing advance, and cylinder pressure...we have a chart that makes it quite simple to calculate maximum (usable) pulsewidth for any engine rpm.

Working backward from max/usable PW table, we're able to choose an injector (& nozzle) that works for 'a' particular customers application.

As with anything, there is compromise when you chose "A" over "B"...you're always giving something up...be that peak power, fuel efficiency, or peak operating rpm, among others...

turbo size, transmission style, driving habits (% of commute vs tow vs play) even vehicle weight and tire size should be considered when choosing not just an injector size, but a nozzle size.

 

[chris1978]

My 300/200's run cleaner and cooler than my AC's or 200/30's ever did. Can tow 15k through the mountains and not break 1200* and not a puff of smoke other than when I downshift. I even trust my wife to drive it as long as she doesn't turn the chip up too far...

 

[under pressure]

Is that detuned and 2000cc of water ? id be curious as to what hp level you tow in ?

 

[TyCorr]

Weazel was running ad's with 200% nozzles, twin hpops, and a 38r. Said.the truck.ran great.