Mild-build Compounds

[JonathanN]

I can get a s362 for approx 750. By time I rebuild a stock turbo with the billet wheel and a 1.15 housing the cost might be more for what I believe would be a weaker charger. I actually thought about this and have a van turbo I bought just for this purpose before I started laying everything out and realized that the 362 was a better option.

Also the up pipes would have to be modified for bellows and a waste gate so why not just jump to a t-4 mount and be all around better off.

The t-4 mount leaves way more options for later down the road as well, be it to go bigger, or to sell everything and return truck to stock.

I'm really not thinking I'm going to be out a whole lot either... I have an e99 so even if I was to go the 38R route, I still have alot to replace. I have decent fab skills and I know plenty of other able individuals that can do what I can't. I do have to buy another turbo, but that's not a whole lot more than buying all the pre-fabbed parts and drop-in components. I'm OCD and like the "good stuff" so I'd spend alot of money regardless.

 

[lincolnlocker]

I can get a s362 for approx 750. By time I rebuild a stock turbo with the billet wheel and a 1.15 housing the cost might be more for what I believe would be a weaker charger. I actually thought about this and have a van turbo I bought just for this purpose before I started laying everything out and realized that the 362 was a better option.

Also the up pipes would have to be modified for bellows and a waste gate so why not just jump to a t-4 mount and be all around better off.

The t-4 mount leaves way more options for later down the road as well, be it to go bigger, or to sell everything and return truck to stock.

10-4

live life full throttle

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

For a smaller injectors like 160's or 200's, would you still run that big of an atmosphere?

That all depends on you goals. As Ty said the specs were for 250/200 and remember I said the Billet S482 would be the Smallest I would even consider running with 250/200 as a atmo turbo.

To put it this way. A S475 will not completely clean up 250/200 as a single. So it will in no way clear them up as a atmo in a compound setup. It will get close as a single but not be CLEAN. By clean I mean smoke free. No smoke now you might get a slight puff when you first step on it but after that completely clean.

No...you're getting numbers for a compound setup fueled by 250/200.

If you want to run a tiny injector use a smaller hp and a smaller atmosphere.

This is right. Try a S362 with a billet S478 Or even the S480. For stage two and smaller. It will spool up, you can do a lot with exhaust housings! I feel a bigger exhaust wheel with a smaller housing will spool better down low ( or with less exhaust pressure) then a smaller exhaust wheel with a bigger exhaust housing.

Its hard to say what is needed without knowing what the OP is looking to get for injectors and what he wants to do. A lot hinges there.

what most of these guys are saying is that there isn't really any need to run that small of an injector in a compound setup due to there being so many turbos that can handle those injectors just fine... now if your like me and wanted a SMOKE FREE 500hp, the s362, s366 or 38r would be fine for the high pressure s475, or similar, would be fine for the atmo....

I still say the S475 is to small. Let me dig up a flow chart for the turbo. that will help me explain why I feel it is to small.

I am not trying to be hard headed here. I might agree with you if you had 175/80 or smaller injectors for the combo. Let me get a flow chart and post it up.

The 362 could flow up to 74lb/min, but what it actually flows depends on the pressure ratio which then depends on how the setup works and I honestly have no clue of that until it's together and working in front of me. Figuring pressure ratios for a compound setup is completely different anyways. And yeah, high boost pressures create "heat", but nothing compared to exhaust temperatures. At a good 50-60lbs of boost at WOT under load and only 70lbs of back pressure if it was set up and tuned right, I'd say the objective was met... I doubt enough "heat" to be a problem.

Yes BUT higher intake temps make for higher EGTs. the cooler you can keep your intake temps the cooler your EGTs will be. So by running a compound setup to keep EGTs down but running more boost then would be needed if you had a bigger charger, Kind of start defeating the purpose of compounds. When you have more boost then needed your intake temps go up and along with that you EGTs go up.

I'm not looking for big HP numbers... I just want a clean, efficient 400-500hp. Truck needs to stay together and stay reliable, it'd my DD and my baby.

The difference between 400hp and 500hp is a BIG difference. and will take different parts and injectors. UNLESS you plan on running the 250/200 but keeping them detuned. Now if it was me. And you were looking for a max of 400hp I would do 175/80s Or if you want 500 MAX I would do 250/80 injectors Or the 250/100 Some tuners will tell you the 80% nozzle is better to tune then the 100% nozzle and is more crisp and clean.

So First you need to decide what you want or need then we can get down to business.

Yea. Its all talking in circles now.

People think its nuts to try to.compound at that power level but if you want to. :thumbsup:

I think you'll be looking to smaller chargers. Anything 66mm in size is going to be running in the teens for boost with all the fuel you have. As you gate the high pressure you're sending more drive to the atmosphere and in turn you are creating more boost. In theory anyway.

Wouldnt he want to run something large enough for a lp that he doesnt need a gate? Be kinda stupid tobrun something that needed a gate. Maybe run a 480 and let it turn sub 20psi.

Need compressor maps.

Exactly. Spot on. And in order to get to that point we need to know exactly what injectors the OP is going to run.

I guess my idea of big HP numbers is 550+... what you describe is what I'm shooting for with compounds and a smaller injector such as a 160/100. However, I might go a little larger, I don't know yet. But that was the idea behind the compounds was to make it clean and fun.

Clean and fun is what compounds are all about. If you never plan to go above 500 238/80 or 250/80 should be fine. Then if you ever want to go bigger just get bigger nozzles put on and have them tweaked to match.

250/200's and a s362/s475 combo is what I want to run on the 350 if I ever get it back together. Just want a setup that will tow and dd nice with decent power. Should easily make enough power to tow anything I want and be plenty for sporting around.

Would work for sure IF you are not going for all the fuel the 250/200 can give.
Would be good for towing to a point. still not enough air from the S475.

The S475 is rated for 105 LB/MIN Now some 66mm turbos will flow in the 95 to 100 LB/MIN range. The S475 does not flow much air really and is nothing special. The 66/99mm turbo i have is rated to flow 99 LB/MIN And can not clean up a lower PW tune on a 300/200 The tune keeps the injectors under the 250cc mark. So its not even calling for near all the fuel it could get. Still maybe 70cc short of empty. This is over 45 PSI of boost right in th emeat of the comp map.

Now try to only run 20 or 25 PSI it would be a smoky pig!

that set up right there could be tuned to an easy 450+ smoke free hp.. or if gated correctly around 600hp.. but why mess with or spend the money on the 362? why not just a billet wheeled stock turbo with a 1.15 exhaust housing?

Not sure it could be tuned to 450+ smoke free. After all you are not even getting all the air the S475 can give. You might be able to just would be hard and you might need porting to do it.

I'm really not thinking I'm going to be out a whole lot either... I have an e99 so even if I was to go the 38R route, I still have alot to replace. I have decent fab skills and I know plenty of other able individuals that can do what I can't. I do have to buy another turbo, but that's not a whole lot more than buying all the pre-fabbed parts and drop-in components. I'm OCD and like the "good stuff" so I'd spend alot of money regardless.

What you need to do is take out pen and paper and decide what you want or need. Get the injector size stamped down and the HP goal you have plus your desired RPM of use. Then we can give you a better turbo setup. Until then we are spitting into the wind so to speak.

Compounds bring a whole new level to the table.

 

[TyCorr]

David an s480 does work as an atmosphere. Maddiesel used one. With 250/100 and 400/200 also. With the larger injector a s 488 may have been better for moving more volume. Maybe. Who knows. I think you can be a little "off" and still get decent results since often the "proper" turbo is being run so slightly that something smaller isnt really losing much at anything but wot.

Look how small the chargers are on a 6.4.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I here you there for sure TY!! I agree the S480 would work. Just not ideal. And it will not be smoke free with 250/200 injectors. The S480 with race cover and cast wheel flows about 120 LB/MIN. Should be almost smoke free with 250/100. It has been and can be done. I guess my hang up is the S475. The term smoke free and 450+ HP and S475 should not be in the same sentence. I hear you there on the 6.4 turbos. BUT the are almost a liter smaller and have a cleaner burn to begin with. For me I would not do it. After all the purpose of compounds it to be fast spooling plus clean burning with low EGTs. Good low end for pulling plus have the air for top end. Why limit yourself with the S475?? It can be done and has been done with the S475. And I am sure will be done again. Just do not see it being the turbo of choice. But if you look at prices the S475 can be had cheap! That makes it look good. I have one that after I am done with it I would sell it for 750 shipped. It would still be new just not new. Mock up turbo.

 

[Vader's Fury]

I here you there for sure TY!! I agree the S480 would work. Just not ideal. And it will not be smoke free with 250/200 injectors. The S480 with race cover and cast wheel flows about 120 LB/MIN. Should be almost smoke free with 250/100. It has been and can be done. I guess my hang up is the S475. The term smoke free and 450+ HP and S475 should not be in the same sentence. I hear you there on the 6.4 turbos. BUT the are almost a liter smaller and have a cleaner burn to begin with. For me I would not do it. After all the purpose of compounds it to be fast spooling plus clean burning with low EGTs. Good low end for pulling plus have the air for top end. Why limit yourself with the S475?? It can be done and has been done with the S475. And I am sure will be done again. Just do not see it being the turbo of choice. But if you look at prices the S475 can be had cheap! That makes it look good. I have one that after I am done with it I would sell it for 750 shipped. It would still be new just not new. Mock up turbo.

One thing I don't believe you are factoring in is the compounding in air density that happens when using a compound turbo setup. Even though that s475 is only moving 115 lbs/min, that air is MUCH denser that atmospheric pressure. There for it contains way more oxygen than air from a single s475. That is the reason why you can make a lot more power using compounds and work the turbo's a lot easier than running the atmosphere as a single.

There is a mathematical equation or group of equations to figure it out. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[TyCorr]

But you're compounding not solely looking at the performance of an s475 as a single. That isnt the way to look at it,imo. An atmosphere making 20psi into a hp turning enough to blow 28psi is making somewhere around 70psi on the manifold...intercooled thats going to "clean" up a lot of damn fuel.

Robert tree'd me. It definitely doesnt seem like he's understanding the way the air moves from tye time it goes through the filter until it is in the cylinder.

As long as Im editing my post, i think a compound setup like that WOULD clean up 250/200s.

 

[Vader's Fury]

OK I have been looking at the equations and I am not sure that I can work the math on here and have it represent properly.

But let me try to loosely explain it. Let's say there are 10 oxygen molecules per cubic foot of air. If the first compressor (the s362 in my setup) makes the air 2x's as dense in the same area, and the second (the s475) does the same, you get the following.

10 x 2 =20 from the s362 discharge which would be inlet to the s475. So that would lead to

20 x 2 =40 from the s475 going into the motor.

That is A LOT more oxegen than that same s475 working as a single. Therefore you should be able to burn more fuel with all other thing being constant.

Hope that made sense to someone else besides me LOL

On edit: Also remember that I am not looking for all out power from this setup. If I have to de-tune the inj at wot to keep smoke down due to excess fuel, I have no issue with that. (Although I believe I will have to de-tune it to keep from breaking hard parts, not due to smoke)

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Here is a S480 Comp map.

Here is a S475 comp map.

I could not find a map for the S482 or the S488. This is one reason I love Garrett turbos!! They have one for every turbo I love it!

As you can see by the maps the S475 moves about 80 LB/MIN @25 PSI The S480 move about 85 LB/MIN @25 PSI. Now the S475 moves about 91 LB/MIN @30 PSI and the S480 moves about 100 LB/MIN @30 PSI. The S475 moves about 102 LB/MIN @50 PSI the S480 moves about 115 LB/MIN @ 50 psi.

From that they do not look that much different. In till you get into the upper range. Now with that said. Why would you want the S475 as a atmo charger?? @ 25 PSI it flowing less the a single S366 would at full song. And the S366 can spool fast set up right. I feel like you really would not be gaining a thing You might even loose power with the S475 as a atmo.

If you ask all the guys that run compounds on the 7.3 and used them (like Charles) you will find most of them say Go with at least a 88mm inducer for the atmo. Why?? So you get the flow and volume needed when running lower boost. The S475 does not have the flow or volume needed to move enough air when only being run in the 25 to 30 PSI range. Even as a single at 50 PSI it would be nip and tuck with 250/200. It still would not clean them up. How will it do it in a compound setup @25 PSI flowing about 20 LB/MIN less? In the Gasser world that can equate to about 200 less HP not sure about the diesel world BUT it would not be as drastic of a loss.

Ok The S475 feeding a S300 something (does not really matter because teh flow the engine will see is from the S475 anyway. The S300 is there just to get boost started and compress the air more.) Lets say the S475 is (On the gauge) @25 PSI and lets say we are @ sea level with 14.7 atmo pressure. That means the S300 will be fed 39.7 PSI Now lets say the S300 is @ 20 PSI (on the gauge) That would mean you will see on the gauge 59.7 PSI at the manifold. Now the engine would really be seeing 74.4 PSI of boost. you just would not see it on the gauge. And all you would have would be in the 80 LB/MIN range with 59.7 PSI on the gauge. That is not enough air to support 450 hp @3000 RPMs It would be smoke. I am not really sure how to put it this stuff on paper. In order to get the Volume of air flow needed you would to run 50 PSI on the atmo. And that would put by gauge right @ 84.7, actual pressure would be 99.4 BUT if you speed the S300 up to keep them in a closer ratio to 30 PSI you would see 104.7 on the gauge and 119.4 actual.

Hence the reason you need a Bigger atmo to keep pressure down but still got the Volume of air needed.

if all you were looking for was Density all you would need to do is get a S300 something and run high boost to get the air density. Yes air density play a big part on a turbo setup BUT without the VOLUME to go with it you have nothing.

Hope this makes sense.


ON EDIT: I apologize if my math is wrong!! That is something I do not like posting on open forum! AND I am sure I did not use the correct math to get the pressure ratio. To be honest it feels like I laid my head on the chopping block! WITHOUT being blindfolded!!

 

[lincolnlocker]

Where is the thread lott had on his gt45/38r setup?

live life full throttle

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Not sure. One thing thou. It died fast. The GT45 flows about the same as the S480 The GTX45 flows about the same as the billet S482.

If I remember right he himself said it was fast spooling BUT on the small side. That is IF i remember right. It would light fast! But then again so did the 38R/GT4718 charels had. Full boost before 2000 I think he said. The GT4718 has a 88mm inducer.

I will see if i can find that thread.

No thread yet but have the pictures.

45R/38R

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Here is a link to the thread.>>http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8685

The thread died because the poor got his pickup stolen!!

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Guys I hope I am not the cause for no more posting here.... If so Sorry!

There would be one way to find out and that is to do it. I think the S475 would be ok with small injectors like stage 2 in a towing setup. just not Ideal for max power.

I enjoy reading threads like this. And posting. That is the best way for me to learn. So go out there and prove me wrong!! Sorry if I stepped on toes..

 

[Vader's Fury]

It seems that the setup Lott built was working pretty well for a street setup. I know the biggest complaint about compounds is that the are complex piping nightmares are make everything harder to work on, but I have a few ideas I want to try with rearranging things under the hood to see if I can make it easier.

I just can't forget that everyone that I have talked to that had compounds after having a single charger said that it was a night and day difference and that they would never go back.

Unfortunately, my projects are the type that take forever to complete as things always seem to get in the way and slow down progress.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

From what He posted and the guy that owned it posted it was doing very well. Just havinf boost come on quick in the lower RPMs will be where to me compounds are perfect. not to mention with compounds you have the big atmo to give the air needed to make power up high where the good spooling single will hinder you. There is a reason IH, And cat had compounds on diesel's from the factory.

Robert when you do compounds be sure to start a thread so we can all see!

 

[Vader's Fury]

There will be a thread on the entire truck rebuild once I get time to start it. Most of the parts are here, just waiting for time.

 

[bruce]

s362fmw with a gtx45 sounds like it would be a sweet setup for a 200% nozzle

 

[JonathanN]

Guys I hope I am not the cause for no more posting here.... If so Sorry!

There would be one way to find out and that is to do it. I think the S475 would be ok with small injectors like stage 2 in a towing setup. just not Ideal for max power.

I enjoy reading threads like this. And posting. That is the best way for me to learn. So go out there and prove me wrong!! Sorry if I stepped on toes..

Lol no, you're not... I've been preoccupied and busy. My Christmas vacation is making me stir-crazy, that's what started this thread lol.

Man, I read what you wrote and I follow you, but there's one thing that still doesn't sit right with me. Yes, at higher pressures, you loose flow. But that's how it works, pressure is resistance to flow. It's similar to hydraulics, a pump creates flow, not pressure. Pressure occurs because there's a resistance to flow occurring except in this case, our pump (turbo) is moving air instead of oil. The difference I see is with a turbocharger system is we're dealing with a compressible element whereas oil is virtually not. Not sure how that affects the results or if it even matters. I supposed you'd still have flow as the pressure increases as more air is packed together, but eventually your flow would stop as your boost pressures peaked. But even then, it's still a case of pressure being resistance to flow. So I still stand with my initial argument.

Yeah, the s480 may have more flow at 25psi than the 475, but that's with how much more OR less exhaust flow to drive it? For 250/200's, yeah it'd be a bit small and I would be running a larger LP because like you say, lots of guys with these larger sticks run at least 45's if not 47's. But, for a stage-2 setup I wouldn't think it'd be ideal because of the smaller exhaust wheel. It ought to drive decent with the lower level of exhaust flow from smaller sticks. Just me, though... I can think all I want but be completely clueless and ungrounded until I see how it actually behaves. If I go with a larger injector, it won't be a hybrid. I'll be running twin oil so if I don't go with AC's and nozzles, I'll go with B-codes and nozzles... 100% if I wanna go mild, 200% if I wanna get all I can out of them.

Thoughts?

 

[bruce]

whats your beef with hybrids?

 

[lincolnlocker]

Lol no, you're not... I've been preoccupied and busy. My Christmas vacation is making me stir-crazy, that's what started this thread lol.

Man, I read what you wrote and I follow you, but there's one thing that still doesn't sit right with me. Yes, at higher pressures, you loose flow. But that's how it works, pressure is resistance to flow. It's similar to hydraulics, a pump creates flow, not pressure. Pressure occurs because there's a resistance to flow occurring except in this case, our pump (turbo) is moving air instead of oil. The difference I see is with a turbocharger system is we're dealing with a compressible element whereas oil is virtually not. Not sure how that affects the results or if it even matters. I supposed you'd still have flow as the pressure increases as more air is packed together, but eventually your flow would stop as your boost pressures peaked. But even then, it's still a case of pressure being resistance to flow. So I still stand with my initial argument.

Yeah, the s480 may have more flow at 25psi than the 475, but that's with how much more OR less exhaust flow to drive it? For 250/200's, yeah it'd be a bit small and I would be running a larger LP because like you say, lots of guys with these larger sticks run at least 45's if not 47's. But, for a stage-2 setup I wouldn't think it'd be ideal because of the smaller exhaust wheel. It ought to drive decent with the lower level of exhaust flow from smaller sticks. Just me, though... I can think all I want but be completely clueless and ungrounded until I see how it actually behaves. If I go with a larger injector, it won't be a hybrid. I'll be running twin oil so if I don't go with AC's and nozzles, I'll go with B-codes and nozzles... 100% if I wanna go mild, 200% if I wanna get all I can out of them.

Thoughts?

Your going to jump from stage 2s right into b codes? Wtf for? If thats the case, you better plan on a 88mm or bigger atmo.

live life full throttle