Mild-build Compounds

[JonathanN]

While hybrids are nice on oil, you loose your fuel pressure at the tip. The reason you increase ICP when you're fueling harder is to increase nozzle pressure for atomization. A hybrid goes from the original 7 to 1 intensifier piston (21,000psi fuel @ 3,000psi ICP) to a 5 to 1 piston (15,000psi fuel @ 3,000psi ICP). But that's the tradeoff... a Hybrid still more efficient because if you were to still attempt to maintain enough ICP with a traditional injector at the lower nozzle pressures of a hybrid, the stock pump couldn't keep up with the oil demands. At 15,000psi fuel @ 2150psi ICP with 7 to 1 piston, the stock pump couldn't keep up with the long PW of a hot tune. For most it's probably not an issue and can most likely be overcome with tuning. But if you're dropping big money on compounds, why not go with twin oil and a traditional injector? When alot of fuel is being dumped (alot as in high-HP quantities of fuel), seems to me that 6,000psi of nozzle pressure lost might make a decent difference in delivery times as well as overall atomization, improving overall efficiency of the burn as well as helping with EGT's and CP's. Just my speculation...

 

[JonathanN]

Your going to jump from stage 2s right into b codes? Wtf for? If thats the case, you better plan on a 88mm or bigger atmo.

live life full throttle

B-codes are in the ballpark of 250cc I believe... they're traditional injectors (7 to 1 pistons), not hybrids.

But, unless I built my motor, I would most likely have them tuned a little mild. I don't want to blow the bottom end out of the truck.

 

[Vader's Fury]

Stock b codes are 250cc. No need to jump to a bigger charger just because using b codes instead of hybrids.

 

[bruce]

Pulled this from an HRT post
Look at it in these simple terms - a stock injector runs a 7:1 injection ratio - a B-code runs a 6:1 injection ratio - an A-code runs a 5:1 injection ratio. If you put the same tip onto all of them - the A - code will always fuel the hardest at low ICP levels and the Hybrid will fuel the hardest at high ICP levels - the B-code falls squarely in the middle. Granted - not many guys are running around with A-codes with 200% tips - which might be a small part of the issues you are experiencing - the larger the injection tip - the less resistance at the tip - the higher the flow rate - as the flow rate increases the pressure drop for the high pressure oil flowing across the injector poppet increases. This is why you can have the three injectors listed above - all running say 3K psi - and the hybrid (the one with the lowest injection ratio) will actually have the higher injection pressure at the tip. This has been proven on the bench time and time again

 

[JonathanN]

With the exception of the BD-code I530E injector... it has the 7 to 1 piston in it.

And I'm not so sure about that... I don't see how that could be the case with the hybrid.

 

[JonathanN]

Stock b codes are 250cc. No need to jump to a bigger charger just because using b codes instead of hybrids.

My thoughts, too I would just run a B-code instead of a hybrid... both have the same displacement, just different piston ratios.

 

[lincolnlocker]

B-codes are in the ballpark of 250cc I believe... they're traditional injectors (7 to 1 pistons), not hybrids.

But, unless I built my motor, I would most likely have them tuned a little mild. I don't want to blow the bottom end out of the truck.

Re read your post and the twin oil just hit me. Guess if you wanna go that route then it wouldnt make much difference except tuning. I was thinking of it being a smokey ass pig and needing more air to compensate for the lack of hpo. Prolly could talk to HRT on here to see what all he knows about b codes unless some new b code secret squirrel stuff has happened that he hasnt tried since he has messed with them.

live life full throttle

 

[JonathanN]

Pulled this from an HRT post
Look at it in these simple terms - a stock injector runs a 7:1 injection ratio - a B-code runs a 6:1 injection ratio - an A-code runs a 5:1 injection ratio. If you put the same tip onto all of them - the A - code will always fuel the hardest at low ICP levels and the Hybrid will fuel the hardest at high ICP levels - the B-code falls squarely in the middle. Granted - not many guys are running around with A-codes with 200% tips - which might be a small part of the issues you are experiencing - the larger the injection tip - the less resistance at the tip - the higher the flow rate - as the flow rate increases the pressure drop for the high pressure oil flowing across the injector poppet increases. This is why you can have the three injectors listed above - all running say 3K psi - and the hybrid (the one with the lowest injection ratio) will actually have the higher injection pressure at the tip. This has been proven on the bench time and time again

From here on PSN:

Larger nozzles- By installing larger nozzles you are makeing the nozzles less restrictive so that more fuel will flow out of them with everything else being the same. Stock injectors with stock programming and larger nozzles will get more fuel out and make more power. Stock injectors only modified to have more fuel capacity with stock nozzles and stock programing will run exactly like stock injectors. In this case the only way to get more fuel out is with a chip to extend the open time of the injector and/or increase the Injection Control Pressure (ICP) to push more fuel out the nozzle. On the same note if you say make a hybrid (installing a larger 7mm plunger and barrel out of a DT466/I530E injector) and leaving the intensifier piston the same will effectively reduce your injection pressure. This less injection pressure will make less pressure at the nozzle and will actually flow less fuel with a stock nozzle than a bone stock injector. So to get the fuel out without a chip you would need larger nozzles.

There is also a point where the stock nozzle just wont flow enough fuel to get the desired amount out in a realisitic time frame. That's why high capacity injectors require larger nozzles to use that capacity.

Codes- All powerstroke and T444Es come with A code injectors. A code injectors have a 6.0mm plunger and a 16mm intensifier piston. What this does is multiply the ICP so that injection pressure is adiquate but not having to have huge amounts of ICP like say in the 20,000 psi range. This difference give you approximately a 7:1 difference and therefore increases your injection pressure 7 psi for every 1 psi of ICP.

All DT466s and I530E injectors are B codes. Of those some DT466s and all I530Es have a 7.1mm plunger, hense more fuel per mm of stroke, with a 17.5mm intensifier piston. This gives you approximately a 6:1 ratio. So no it will not have quite as high of ICP as as the A codes but it's not as bad as it could be. However due to the larger intensifier piston they reqire much more high pressure oil to make the piston stroke the same distance. This is why you need a high pressure oil system with a higher capacity.

Hybrid injectors are taking the 7.1mm plunger and barrel out of a BD code I530E injector and installing it into an A code injector with a 16mm intensifier piston. As you could imagine the down fall is that the injection ratio is dropped to approximatly 5:1 further decreasing injection pressure. However with the smaller intensifier piston it requires no more oil than an equivilant A code yet it flows the same amount of fuel as a B code. The result is much more fuel capacity without the need for more high pressure oil volume.

A codes and B codes can be further broken down as well.

A and AA injectors came in the '94-'97 non-california trucks. They are all 90cc injectors and are single shots.

AB injectors came in the '97 cali, and all early '99 trucks. They are split shot injectors meaning they fire a small pilot shot before the main shot. These injectors flow 130-135cc of fuel.

AC injectors are found in the high torque version of the T444E and do not come in any Powerstrokes. They have the same internals as the AB injectors with the exception of the single shot plunger and barrel. However due to them being single shot injectors they flow 160cc. This is due to the way the split shots work. They have a small passage that opens, much like a port in a two stroke engine, that are uncovered that bypass the injection pressure out the side of the barrel instead of out the end through the nozzle. Because of this pause a portion of the travel of the plunger does nothing for injecting fuel so a split shot injects less fuel for the same amount of travel as a single shot.

AD injectors are also split shot but flow 135-140cc of fuel due to a slightly longer plunger stroke. These are found in all late '99-'03 Powerstrokes and T444Es.

AE and AF injectors are essentially the same as AD injectors but were called a long lead injector that was used as an attempt to cure a "cackle" issue many people complained about.

BA, BB, and BC injectors are essentiall all the same and are the same as AC injectors but are found in some DT466s.

BD injectors are the only B codes with the larger 7.1mm plunger and barrel that are single shot injectors. These are the injectors people are usually talking about when they are talking about putting I530E injectors in their Powerstrokes.

BE injectors are essentially the same as the AD injectors but found in some '97-'99 DT466s.

EF, BG, BI, BJ, BN and BP injectors all have basicly the same capacity and are split shots. However the nozzles vary on them depending on application. They can be found in many DT466s and I530Es.

 

[JonathanN]

Re read your post and the twin oil just hit me. Guess if you wanna go that route then it wouldnt make much difference except tuning. I was thinking of it being a smokey ass pig and needing more air to compensate for the lack of hpo. Prolly could talk to HRT on here to see what all he knows about b codes unless some new b code secret squirrel stuff has happened that he hasnt tried since he has messed with them.

live life full throttle

Yeah, I had mentioned twin oil in my first post, but it wasn't stressed too hard I guess. LOL

 

[bruce]

did you read what i posted. that is straight from jason's mouth

 

[JonathanN]

Something else I found interesting... these guys are one of the few if not the only ones to make a compound kit for our trucks, at least so I've found thus far. Notice their milder stage-1 kit is for AC's to 255's. Notice their LP charger options in the drop-down menu: the 4202 (s475) and the 4294 (s471)... link

Shucks, if I was going for the milder build, I could try it... if I can't keep the boost down because the LP drives harder than I want, I can always go bigger with the LP or wastegate it.

 

[JonathanN]

did you read what i posted. that is straight from jason's mouth

Yeah, I did... here's my response: link

I don't know what to think now... :shrug:

 

[bruce]

mike posted that link in 07, the excerpt i pulled was from a post jason did in 2011.

 

[JonathanN]

I got ya... got a link to his post and the thread that was out of?

 

[bruce]

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4087&highlight=codes+hybrids

 

[JonathanN]

Thanks... I'd be curious to see what he'd say. According to the PSN article, he's right on all except the BD-codes... those supposedly have a 7 to 1 piston in them.

 

[bruce]

all i know is that he said at 3000 of icp the hybrid has the most injection pressure. good enough for me

 

[Vader's Fury]

Ya but what percent of the time you spend driving your truck are you running 3000 psi?

Just food for thought.

 

[bruce]

Thanks... I'd be curious to see what he'd say. According to the PSN article, he's right on all except the BD-codes... those supposedly have a 7 to 1 piston in them.

if you read the article is says all b codes have a 7.1mm plunger with a 17.5mm intensifier piston, the bd is the only one which is single shot

 

[bruce]

when it matters, ie loaded heavy or foot buried in the skinny it's makin 3000psi of icp