My tow pig/DD build thread. F350/Cummins 6.7/twins/6R140

[me2]

I started working on the turbo setup as my planned turbo setup went out the window with the clearance issue under the hood.

When I asked around, the first thing people told me was to get a 2nd gen (24V 1998 -02) manifold because it would solve the placement problem of the upper turbo. So I did.

The problem with using a 2nd gen manifold in the upright position is that the turbo housing protrude above the LOWERED valve cover by about 4 inches. Ideally, I do not want anything protruding above the lowered valve cover.

The turbo in this picture is positioned above the where it would be if mounted directly on the manifold, but one cannot mount an HE351VE directly on the manifold because the 2nd gen manifold has a T3 pattern and the HE351 has a T3i pattern or whatever they call it.

So one would have to make a non trivial adapter from one pattern to the other, which would put the turbo out further, if not up higher as well. Thus I consider the height measurement in the picture indicative of about where it would end up.

Could it be made to work ? Possibly. But not easily.

The other problems with the turbo placement using the 2nd gen manifold is that the turbo is relatively far back on the engine, putting it almost directly in front of the cowl and not leaving much room for the S475 that must fit behind it.

Wanting to have the turbo further forward had me looking for a manifold with an exhaust port forward of between the 3-4 cylinders. It turns out the stock 6.7 manifold flipped would put the turbocharger between the 2 and 3rd cylinders.

One could not mount the HE351VE on top of the inverted manifold as it would stick about 5" above the LOWERED valve cover.

One could, however, make a 180 degree mounting plate/exhaust fitting that mounts the HE351VE beside the manifold between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders.

If one does this, the turbo protrudes about 16 inches from the side of the block, which is acceptable. You wouldn't want it to go much further but it will fit in the truck, probably without removing the passenger side battery, although I will be removing the passenger side battery.

Here is a side view with a piece of cardboard to roughly simulate the dome of the exhaust elbow to be built into the mount.

Not that there is about 1.5" of space between the turbo and the manifold. This will be removed in the final mount. Right now its just sitting as close as I could get it without drilling any holes.

Here is a side view of the engine with the turbo mounted.

There is lots of room for the S475 both height wise and length wise. The S475 is a large turbo, about 10 inches from compressor inlet to exhaust outlet. It will need to be mounted high to clear the engine mounts and a bit forward so that the down pipe can clear the transmission adapter plate.

I'm using a rubber inlet elbow on the HE351 in these pictures. It could be positioned below the turbocharger or above it. It would be much tidier below, so that is where I'll strive to keep it.

The hot pipe is a piece of cake with this set up and the S475 will actually protrude less from the block than the HE351VE does.

There are a couple things that need attention to do this.

1) I have to rework the alternator mount a bit so that it is closer to the block. No big deal. A couple hours of fabricating, maybe less.

2) There isn't a lot of clearance between the very hot HE351VE turbine housing and the oil filter. Luckily this area is cooled by the fan, but I doubt that will be enough. I'll either fabricate a good heat shield or implement a remote filter setup.

I checked into the later and found this.

Its a replacement filter head. Cummins part#3284170. Its beautiful and would work perfectly. Unfortunately, Cummins wants $380 for it. I purchased a used 5.9 CR filter head and will probably modify it to implement a remote filter setup instead.

I had to remove the studs on one of the 6.7 manifold EGR ports so that it wouldn't contact the block above the filter assembly. They came out fairly easily with a stud remover.

One other thing. I was initially frowning on using the stock 6.7 manifold because people told me it was very restrictive.

Upon direct comparison, I don't think it is restrictive at all. As a matter of fact, if the manifolds have similar wall thicknesses, the 6.7 manifold has a considerably larger cross section everywhere.

The pictures don't do the size difference justice, but in real life it is very apparent.

Today was a frustrating day in that I had lots of interuptions and the HE351VE outlet flange turned out not to fit. I should have a new flange at the end of the week and hopefully fewer interuptions tomorrow.

I received a Cummins 5.9 flexplate today. I'll be looking into the flexpate/starter/transmission adapter issue tomorrow.

Edits

Sorry for all the clutter in the background in these pictures. It makes it hard to see exactly what is going on.

In the pictures with the HE351VE mounted on the 2nd gen manifold, the center portion of the turbo would need to be rotated outward so that the center drain is on the bottom. The turbo could not be mounted like its shown in the pictures I took. I was only after the height of the turbocharger covers and did not include the VGT actuator in those numbers. The VGT actuator would stick out the side, making for a very wide installation, about 2 inches wider than using the 6.7 manifold.

 

[me2]

If anyone can see a reason why I shouldn't mount the HE351VE this way, I'd love to hear it. If not, I'll be going ahead with this turbo setup.

 

[me2]

What does everyone think of relocating the filter ? Necessary ? Unnecessary ? Prudent ? I'm undecided myself.

 

[TrailerHauler]

Maybe wait to decide until you get the engine with the twins sitting in the truck? I'm sure it would be easier to access if relocated, but maybe it won't be tucked behind the turbos and piping far enough to warrant the hassle and extra cost of relocation.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

Relocate the filter - it will make it more serviceable as well as give you more room in an area where you need it - much like changing out the exhaust manifold to one that will allow you to move the turbo to a different spot.

I'm not too keen on the 180* plumbing to make that VGT turbo fit - what does it look like if you flip the manifold over and then flipped the charger over so the inlet to the compressor is pointed towards the rear of the truck?

 

[me2]

Relocate the filter - it will make it more serviceable as well as give you more room in an area where you need it - much like changing out the exhaust manifold to one that will allow you to move the turbo to a different spot.

Maybe the pictures don't make it clear, but the only issue with the stock filter placement is heat. As far as changing it goes, its probably fine. Does anyone think it needs to be moved for heat reasons ?

I'm not too keen on the 180* plumbing to make that VGT turbo fit

Why is that ? I can easily keep the same area as the manifold throat throughout the elbow. The shape will be nice. The path is short.

????

what does it look like if you flip the manifold over and then flipped the charger over so the inlet to the compressor is pointed towards the rear of the truck?

Which manifold ?

If you flip the 6.7 manifold over, the turbo is at the back of the engine. That is a non starter.

If you flip the 2nd gen manifold over and put the turbo underneath, if you face the compressor forward, it gets wide and puts the turbo low. If you face the compressor backwards, its a plumbing nightmare getting the hot pipe from the front to the HE351 to to the back turbo.

Its much easier to plumb the cold pipe around from the front of the top turbo to the compressor outlet of the back turbo compared to plumbing hot pipes. I think it fits much better too.

 

[me2]

I'm working on the flex plate and the transmission adapter plate this morning. My head hurts from all the thinking.

The 6R140 torque converter was NOT designed to work with a Cummins engine. Bolting a clutch to a flywheel is so much easier than trying to bolt a torque converter to a different engine.

 

[me2]

I think I have the adapter plate, flex plate and starter figured out.

I'm back working on the lower turbo, trying to see if there is room to clear a starter on the passenger side.

 

[me2]

Lots of measuring, figuring and sketching today.

I got the flex plate and adapter plate figured out. The starter is going on the passenger side. I won't have to cut the 6R140 bellhousing.

Once I got that done, I returned to working on turbo positions.

Here is where I think things are going to end up. The HE351VE is now mounted in its final position via a plate. The S475 is hanging by straps, pending exact starter placement. There is just enough room to cram everything on the side of the engine. No extra.

While it looks as though you could move the HE351 back, then it would be very difficult to get cold air into the S475. Spaced the way they are, there is just enough room to get a cold air feed in there.

I probably won't relocate the oil filter.

I think everything will fit in the truck quite nicely.

The HE351 hangs out about 16 inches from the side of the engine.

The F350 cowl hangover lines up approximately with the edge of the inlet on the S475.

The hot pipe and cold pipe will be straight forward to make.

The 5 inch air inlet to the S475 will have a couple bends, but nothing dramatic. The air cleaner will end up on the passenger fenderwell somewhere.

The HE351 compressor outlet, when rotoated lines up well with the stock Ford intercooler pipe.

There is lots of room between the S475 outlet and the HE351 inlet to implement an interstage charge cooler at a later date.

There isn't going to be much room between the starter and the underside of the turbine on the S475. The hardest part is going to be routing the oil drain from the underside of the S475 to the pan connection in the block. The reason being that the starter is going to block the path. But I am sure I'll work it out. I'm hoping that there will be space between the starter and the block.

Anyone know of a DIY spray on coating for the turbo turbine housings and exhaust manifold ? I'll use wrap on the hot pipe and maybe the cold pipe too, but I have nothing to cover the turbine housings and exhaust manifold.

BTW, I love the engine stand. I really like working on the engine and not being on the floor. And its very stable too.

 

[oildigger]

I had remembered reading about a guy working for ATS swapping a 6.7 cummins into an 07 F250 and having twin turbos. He had a 62mm over S475 turbo. Here is the link to one of the magazine articles that covered it. Hope it helps.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/features/1110or_cummins_powered_2007_ford_f250_speed_torque/index.html

 

[me2]

After sleeping on it for the night, I am not sure that I like the HE351 hanging way out to the side like it does.

Will it work/ fit like that ? Probably.

Is it elegant ? Not really. The thing I dislike most is that the HE351 is going to take up quite a bit or most of the passenger side engine compartment. I did some measuring and the passenger battery will definitely have to be moved. Seems like a waste of precious space.

It wouldn't take me long to weld up a custom exhaust manifold. Nothing fancy, just 6 short exhaust ports into a central pipe. Constant diameter throughout, maybe 1 taper down for cylinders 1 and 6.

The problem is, I don't know where else to put the HE351 that makes it any better. The constraints are
- turbos cant protrude above the valve cover for height reasons
- HE351 actutor needs to be pretty much level for proper oil drainage
- must make room for the starter on the passenger side
- there is more width available at the front of the engine compartment than at the back
- there is more width available up high in the engine compartment than down low

Tucking the HE351 down under the exhaust manifold at the front means I would have to relocate the oil filter and the HE351 would have to move back about 6 inches to clear the back of the alternator and A/C compressor. I could move the alternator to the other side fairly easily. Going under the manifold instead of side to side like it is now would decrease the overall width by 4 inches. Is it worth it ?

Ideas ? Feedback ?

 

[me2]

I had remembered reading about a guy working for ATS swapping a 6.7 cummins into an 07 F250 and having twin turbos. He had a 62mm over S475 turbo. Here is the link to one of the magazine articles that covered it. Hope it helps.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/features/1110or_cummins_powered_2007_ford_f250_speed_torque/index.html

Nice truck. Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this one before.

I like how clean the engine compartment is.

 

[me2]

I did more test fitting to see if I could achieve a better engine package size and fit.

In this round I pretended that I was making my own manifold and mounted the HE351 as if there was a manifold with a side port between cylinders 2 and 3.

This positioning puts the turbocharger about an inch above the lowered valve cover, meaning there is about 2 inches between it and the hood. If I made my own narrow manifold, I could shave about 4 inches off the width of the engine package and have even better pipe routes to boot.

I think this is a much nicer package.

I think I am going to make my own exhaust manifold from 2 x 2 x 3/16" square tubing. It will be placed directly on the port plates and have internal diverters to ensure smooth blending of the exhaust flow from each of the cylinders.

It won't be as good flow wise as a custom, round pipe manifold, but it should still work well and it will fit my application much better than anything I can find to buy. The custom manifold will also allow me to raise the rear turbo about an inch.

FYI, the 6.7 manifold has 1.5" round ports.

I'm also probably going to cut off the compressor outlet on the S475 and TIG on an aluminum elbow.

I was asked why I have the rear turbo so high. The answer is that the starter needs to go beneath it. "But on other conversions the starter is much lower than that." I know. Because I'm using the starter ring gear and most of the flex plate from the Ford application and the 6R140 bellhousing has a slight cut out for the starter at about 2:45 when viewed from the rear, it has to go where the starter ring and bellhousing place it. That being tucked up tight to the block underneath the rear turbo.

I need parts water cut to build the manifold. I also need a bunch of parts water cut for the transmission adapter. I'm hunkering down to do a whole bunch of CAD work.

FWIW, if I had the resources, I'd have a CNC plasma table. I was going to build one before I started this project but stopped when I realized that I didn't have room to store it.

Are you guys sick of this stuff yet ?

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

Are you guys sick of this stuff yet ?

Not yet!

 

[Project20v]

Are you going to wastegate the VGT turbo?

 

[me2]

Are you going to wastegate the VGT turbo?

Not initially. I want to see what the backpressures are like with it in the compound configuration first.

 

[Project20v]

My thought is that the backpressure will be too high and that the S475 will be starving for energy. You'll probably have to wastegate it right from the manifold and exit in to the turbine inlet of the S475.

 

[me2]

My thought is that the backpressure will be too high and that the S475 will be starving for energy. You'll probably have to wastegate it right from the manifold and exit in to the turbine inlet of the S475.

It will be easy to do that if I need to. And if I do, I'll use the wastegate control valve from a 7.3 to control the opening and closing of the wastegate, via a micro controller using CAN data.

However, the HE351 supposedly has a 19cm housing, which shouldn't be that restrictive. I suspect that the high backpressure that has been observed is more due to pushing the compressor out of its map than anything. Within its map, the drive pressure should be reasonable.

I guess we'll see when I get it running and start tuning it.

I'm installing pressure and temperature sensors in the cold pipe so that I know what each turbo is doing independently.

 

[me2]

I'm working on a console shifter setup. I'll post pictures when it looks like something.

 

[me2]

I have several projects on the go today.

Mount 5th Wheel Hitch

My wife wants our 5er at the house this weekend so that we can prep it for next weekend's camping trip. I plan to pull it with my F350, so I need to get the 5th wheel hitch mounted in it.

I used a Hijacker SL16 dual pivot hitch in my old truck. I found a set of used bed rails for it, so I plan to use it in my new truck as well. It will be handy to have 2 trucks to be able to hook onto the trailer as I cannot leave a trailer unattached to a truck parked on our street.

I've had my SL16 since 1999. I love it because it uses a drawbar and thus its impossible to accidently mis hitch and drop the trailer.

My old truck (F250, 5.9CR, ZF6) is still able to puller the 5er, but its in rough condition right now due to theft damage and thus I until I do some work on it, I only use it occassionally around town.

Console Shifter

I need a way to conveniently trigger my CAN Bus data logger and sooner or later I need a shift lever to manually control the 6R140 when its in manual shifting mode, so I started working on this.

The truth is that I'm a transmission shifting control freak and I dearly miss my ZF6. I plan to program my transmission controller with several operating modes, covering from full auto to full manual. I expect to be in full manual mode when towing in demanding conditions.

The plan is to have a 2 positon electronic shifter (forward = up, back = down) built into the console with buttons on the shift knob for various other functions.

I originally tried adapting the knob to an arcade joystick controller, but for a number of reasons I abandoned that effort and am now making the shift mechanism from scratch.

I'll post pictures when my scratch built shifter looks like something.

I will retain the column shifter for the purpose of shifting the valve body and such. The console shifter will be electronic only, for upshifting and downshifting in various modes.

I will be upgrading the column shifter from the 08 shift lever (with a tow haul button only) to the '11 shift lever with tow haul and up/down shift buttons.

I am not using the column shifter up/down buttons for shifting the 6R140 because I don't like the positioning and I want to use the up/down buttons on the column shifter to change the exhaust braking and transmission shifting characteristics, like its done in a Volvo truck with their iShift system.

While I have the console out of the truck and apart, I'll be mounting Ford 120VAC power outlets in it. I'm mounting an inverter in the truck and I need outlets mounted in the console to distribute the power so passengers can power their various electronic gizmos.

CAD Work

I'm still drafting up the various parts I need water cut. I'm trying to all the parts I need for everything all at once and I'm having to make a lot of decisions as I go. Its a slow process.

The slowest part of it all is that I have to make a mock transmission adapter from wood to double check everything and to make sure that the placement of the starter works for both the engine and the transmission bellhousing.

And, in my spare time, I am working on the CAN Bus stuff.

I've warned my wife that I need to work continuously on stuff this weekend to get this project back on track. She told me she has lots of independent things planned such that I'll have uninterrupted time.