No start, out of the blue...

Mdub707

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Got bored at work and pulled apart the relay... nothing looks funny or smells burnt. IDK... I'll grab some from the junkyard today, but I don't have high hopes. This is driving me nuts, and I hate electrical crap.

slow day at work...
20120709_132934.jpg
 

Mdub707

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Ok, managed to find ONE of these relays at the junkyard. I checked probably a dozen or so crown vic/grand marquis type cars, the only one that even had the setup that contained this one relay was a 97 grand marquis. I checked older and newer and it was the only one... maybe just got lucky, who knows.

Anyways, last night I did something that kind of set me back. I accidentally touched the multi meter probe against the case of one of the FICM's I have here. Oops. I wasn't sure if it was damaging or not, turns out it was.

Get the new relay in, have the gf turn the key and test probe the FICM. 0.0 volts across the board, no injector buzz, nothing. Crap. So swap in my other FICM from the back seat (newer 4 pin). Try again, I'm getting a solid 48.6V across the board now. Try cranking truck again, and no smoke still. I test probe the batteries as they are getting weak from all this cranking now, and they're reading something like 11.6V now, so they're dying. This is the first I've had the FICM stay above 48V consistently, but still no smoke. So with weakish batteries would that cause something to not fire the injectors? The batt's should be up more like 12.5 and above right? If I try jumping it will it start? I know it seems like it'd be easier to just try it, but honestly it's not, I will probably have to call AAA to come with a jump box to try it, and I don't want to call them for nothing. I might stop and buy a battery charger/tender deal tomorrow after work.

So now I've got the FICM going at 48V+ the whole time, but still didn't see smoke. I didn't crank long either, as the batteries are getting weak.

Any help is appreciated, this is driving me nucking futs.
 

hawgdoctor

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Ok, managed to find ONE of these relays at the junkyard. I checked probably a dozen or so crown vic/grand marquis type cars, the only one that even had the setup that contained this one relay was a 97 grand marquis. I checked older and newer and it was the only one... maybe just got lucky, who knows.

Anyways, last night I did something that kind of set me back. I accidentally touched the multi meter probe against the case of one of the FICM's I have here. Oops. I wasn't sure if it was damaging or not, turns out it was.

Get the new relay in, have the gf turn the key and test probe the FICM. 0.0 volts across the board, no injector buzz, nothing. Crap. So swap in my other FICM from the back seat (newer 4 pin). Try again, I'm getting a solid 48.6V across the board now. Try cranking truck again, and no smoke still. I test probe the batteries as they are getting weak from all this cranking now, and they're reading something like 11.6V now, so they're dying. This is the first I've had the FICM stay above 48V consistently, but still no smoke. So with weakish batteries would that cause something to not fire the injectors? The batt's should be up more like 12.5 and above right? If I try jumping it will it start? I know it seems like it'd be easier to just try it, but honestly it's not, I will probably have to call AAA to come with a jump box to try it, and I don't want to call them for nothing. I might stop and buy a battery charger/tender deal tomorrow after work.

So now I've got the FICM going at 48V+ the whole time, but still didn't see smoke. I didn't crank long either, as the batteries are getting weak.

Any help is appreciated, this is driving me nucking futs.
Any way to monitor icp/ipr?
 

Mdub707

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Yeah all the readings have been posted earlier in this thread... Seems like high pressure oil is good still. Definitely seems like an electrical issue.
 

UpstateDieselGuy

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You may have it narrowed down, but the batteries are low. Can you put a charger on them overnight? A jump may be enough, but don't be surprised if it isn't. They take a lot of juice to turn over. Also, if they are less than 12V the low voltage will carry thought the system and cause all types of headaches.
 

Mdub707

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You may have it narrowed down, but the batteries are low. Can you put a charger on them overnight? A jump may be enough, but don't be surprised if it isn't. They take a lot of juice to turn over. Also, if they are less than 12V the low voltage will carry thought the system and cause all types of headaches.

Need to go buy a battery charger tomorrow because I don't have one here unfortunately.






Mike, did you ever check to see if fuel was getting into the fuel bowl?

Nope. Should do that. Ordered the fitting fur the fuel bowl so I can check it though since my vegistroke manifold is off the truck
 

DEEZUZ

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figure a 2-3V drop while cranking. PCM shuts down @ 9 volts....
 

Mdub707

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That's actually comforting, I didn't know when the PCM shut down. That makes sense. I should check voltage on the batteries while I'm cranking to confirm that. This is the first I've seen the 48+V while cranking. I see 48+ cranking with either relay now though... maybe the FICM was the issue? But why wouldn't it start when I swapped this 4 pin on the first time... Hmmm.

Hopefully I can get a charger on it tonight and get it going here!

Thanks for all the help so far, this has been extremely frustrating.
 

Mdub707

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Charged the batteries up, and they're holding 10.8v or so during cranking, so the pcm should be working, still no start and no smoke... Dang
 

Mdub707

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Just double checked FICM with a multi-meter tonight for sanity. 48.6 key on, 48.6 cranking, and obviously don't know starting.

Recharging one of the batteries right now, going to try double checking my ICP readings when it's ready. This sucks.
 
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Snake

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Mike -- charge the batteries all the way before trying anything else. Remember my new alternator not charging fiasco? I threw the charger on the batteries until they were 100% charged and expected to continue troubleshooting later that day. Somehow everything started working again once the batteries were charged. I still have no explanation and I was seeing around 11.8v at the batteries before I charged.
 

Mdub707

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I will try that Mike.

Just tried WD40 in the intake while the gf cranked, no fire.

FICM voltage by multi-meter is good.

FICM voltages on the scanner mimic those posted earlier... not sure if they're right or not.

I did just re-check for codes, and did get a camshaft position sensor code this time, but I'm not sure if it's from cranking so much and not starting, or if it's really a problem. I might order one tomorrow just to eliminate it, but man I HATE throwing parts at an unknown problem.

Double checked ICP actual and desired and IPR duty too.

ICP desired - 1182psi
ICP actual - 1521psi
IPR duty started low but was slowly creeping up, but my batteries were dying before it got really high, but it did make it up to like 40% or so, very slowly.

Any other suggestions? I'm going to try and order AE tomorrow, so I don't have to keep converting ft/hg (feet of mercury) to PSI, this software is stupid. It gives me ICP actual in PSI, but ICP desired in ft/hg. Unreal. Anyways...

Might just order a camshaft position sensor tomorrow. Or anyone have a working spare kicking around I can borrow for troubleshooting? I hate throwing parts at a truck, it's part of the reason 6.0's get such a bad rep.

Battery 1 is charging. I went ahead and removed both batteries this time to see if that changes anything. Who knows, worth a shot.
 

DEEZUZ

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No, its not a CMP... It throws that code since its just cranking.

Have you measured fuel pressure?
 

Mdub707

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Kind of what I figured on the CMP.

Don't have an actual pressure reading, my gauge is not hooked up at the moment, since I normally read on my vegistroke manifold, but it's off the truck right now. I ordered the adapter to read at the fuel bowl, waiting for that to arrive.

I'm pretty confident the high pressure oil side of the truck is functioning fine, I'm pretty convinced it's electrical.

Even if fuel pressure was low, you'd think it'd stills start and idle. I've started and idled the truck before with the fuel pump unplugged. At the rate the fuel bowl on top filled up, I'd say it's pushing enough fuel to at least get some smoke out of the exhaust... but I've got nothing in terms of smoke.

Both batteries are off the truck, going to charge them up to full capacity, but not sure what to check once they're up and ready to go. Seems like we've exhausted most options here...
 

Mdub707

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It's not even being injected from what I can tell. Would video help? Any other ideas on what to check?
 

DEEZUZ

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Id ether the **** out of it. But that's just me... its got me frustrated also
 

DEEZUZ

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Im thinking its a sync issue. Might even have a worn thrust bearings causing tone ring to move in and out of sync
 
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