No start, out of the blue...

[Mdub707]

I'm going to read over the FICM sync operations at work today and think this over.

 

[F-250-Owner]

I would have manually ignited the fuel by now...... that thing would be on fire in the driveway.... you have way more patience than I do.....

 

[Mdub707]

Starting on ether really isn't going to help me in any way that I can tell. Lighting it on fire has been thought about, it seems more logical than everything else I'm doing...

If I don't have it figured out by tomorrow I'll probably have it dragged to the dealership I guess, not sure what else to do. Going to pour over the no start/hard start Ford PDF today, as well as FICM sync operations, because I still believe this to be a stupid electrical issue. I can't imagine the tone ring being an issue, this happened so suddenly, and usually when you hear about tone ring issues it's all intermittent starting problems, not just a dead in the driveway kind of thing. I guess at this point I need to be open to any and all possibilities.

I'm going to read and re-read this right now: http://www.fordtechservice.dealerconnection.com/vdirs/subsites/diag/6.0L_FICM_Guide.pdf

 

[Mikeh1725]

Man what a pain! Hope you get it figured out.

 

[STROKER]

Have you checked your grounds yet? I would check your FICM harness and see if the ground wire got messed up.

 

[Mdub707]

Only got a couple minutes to do a scan... here's what I just scanned, check it out.... let me know what you guys think.

Looking at my picture here again (sorry for the poor paste job into paint that made it really small...)

FICM logic power needs to be at LEAST 7 Volts. It had a "max" value of less than 3...

In the document I linked in the last post, I found this bit of info

• If there is no FICM logic power to the FICM, the
injectors will still buzz once the key is cycled but
the engine will not start. There will be no other
symptoms related to the no start condition.
• With the WDS, select DATALOGGER PID FICM
LPWR. This PID will show how much voltage is
being supplied to the FICM. If less then eight
volts, check for short/open or low battery.
• If no voltage is being supplied, check logic fuse
located in the relay center box. This box is
mounted on the driver’s side toward the cowl.
• No voltage could also be caused by the FICM
logic circuit through the C1282 (12-PIN)
connector.


So it looks like I should be checking over the wire harness'? It seems like if I had chaffing wires I would have had more issues than I do right now. I think I might dig in, take the FICM out, remove the FICM wire harness that feeds the injectors and go over it with a fine tooth comb. I do fix FICM's often and always test them on my truck, so those 3 big plugs that connect to the FICM are getting moved a lot. You would think if that was genuinely an issue, it would have been more intermittent than this.

However, low logic power would have explained why I was getting low voltage to the injectors while they were buzzing before, and then 0.0V after they stopped buzzing... but I don't have that issue now, it's 48V cranking and 48 key on engine off.

I'm kind of just thinking out loud here hoping to spark new ideas. :morons:




The SYNC and FICM SYNC operations are also of interest right now.

• SYNC is totally dirived from the CKP
sensor. It is possible to have no CMP
sensor signal and still have SYNC
(YES) and an RPM signal.
• NO SYNC and no RPM signal,
typically is a faulty CKP
sensor/circuit problem.

The FICM uses CMPO (Camshaft Position Sensor Output) and CKPO (Crankshaft Position Sensor Output) signals, which are
sent by the PCM, to calculate FICM SYNC. FICM SYNC is calculated by the FICM and is the correlation between the camshaft
pin and the crankshaft triggers. Once FICM SYNC is achieved, the FICM uses engine speed, MFDES (Mass Fuel Desired), EOT,
and ICP to calculate fuel timing, pulse width, and pilot injection usage. If the CMPO and CKPO signals are not properly timed,
FICM Sync may not occur.

 

[Mdub707]

Have you checked your grounds yet? I would check your FICM harness and see if the ground wire got messed up.

I am going to go over the FICM harness next I guess.

Seems odd that it's been running pretty trouble free for so long. Drove it home, parked it in the driveway, shut it off myself, then go out the next morning, it pops like it fired on 2 cylinders and then nothing??? I guess none of it is really making any sense though.

Also if there was no ground to the FICM, I don't think it would buzz the injectors, or show 48V the rest of the time, but I'm not positive on that. I will read up on that some more and check out that harness later tonight.

 

[golfer]

any reason to suspect fuel QUALITY?

(like everything was fine until you just filled up the tank....etc?)

might be worthwhile to take a fuel sample...

you have FICM voltage..you have ICP...(last I saw) you had FICM sync...passes a buzz test(???< ie..you HEAR each inj buxx ok?)

the thing should start...unless you have a chit ton of jacked up water/gas/debris in the fuel system.

 

[Mdub707]

Even if fuel quality was an issue, I would think it would spit and sputter and cough a bit. I'm getting not even a remote sound of firing, and no smoke. Fuel filters were changed less than 1000 miles ago, and I never go more than 10k on filters. I fill up from the same station a majority of the time, where a few big local rigs fill up, so fuel is always fresh and used by many around me. I guess I never suspected it, but the symptoms didn't really point me that way, at least I didn't think so. Also, I believe I'm about 1/2 way through this tank fill up too, not like I just filled it around the corner and came home.

Truck ran great right up until I parked it in the driveway. Went outside the next morning, turned it over, popped once like it fired on a cylinder or two, and then nothing... now just cranks and cranks and no smoke. No smoke to me means the injectors are not firing.

Appreciate the input everyone. If anything it helps to reassure what I've already tried. Been double and triple checking everything now.

The only issue I see right now is FICM logic power is not at the right power level according to my data logging, and I know the FICM is good. Has to be an issue with power feeding the FICM.

I shall see what happens tonight with two 100% charged batteries.

 

[golfer]

Even if fuel quality was an issue, I would think it would spit and sputter and cough a bit. I'm getting not even a remote sound of firing, and no smoke. Fuel filters were changed less than 1000 miles ago, and I never go more than 10k on filters. I fill up from the same station a majority of the time, where a few big local rigs fill up, so fuel is always fresh and used by many around me. I guess I never suspected it, but the symptoms didn't really point me that way, at least I didn't think so. Also, I believe I'm about 1/2 way through this tank fill up too, not like I just filled it around the corner and came home.

Truck ran great right up until I parked it in the driveway. Went outside the next morning, turned it over, popped once like it fired on a cylinder or two, and then nothing... now just cranks and cranks and no smoke. No smoke to me means the injectors are not firing.

Appreciate the input everyone. If anything it helps to reassure what I've already tried. Been double and triple checking everything now.

The only issue I see right now is FICM logic power is not at the right power level according to my data logging, and I know the FICM is good. Has to be an issue with power feeding the FICM.

I shall see what happens tonight with two 100% charged batteries.

if the plungers inside the fuel injectors are seized...from a lack of lubricity..then you would have exactly the symptoms you currently have...without a drop of fuel leaving the injector nozzles...you wouldn't have any smoke...not even a hint.

 

[F-250-Owner]

but would all 8 seize at the same time?

 

[Mdub707]

if the plungers inside the fuel injectors are seized...from a lack of lubricity..then you would have exactly the symptoms you currently have...without a drop of fuel leaving the injector nozzles...you wouldn't have any smoke...not even a hint.

So all 8 injectors simultaneously plugged up in 2-3 seconds of cranking, even though it ran great 8 hours before and did nothing else but sit there parked? I could see if one injector did this, or maybe even 2, but 8? With no other symptoms?

 

[Mdub707]

but would all 8 seize at the same time?

Oops, didn't see your post.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate any and all input at this point... :morons:

 

[golfer]

but would all 8 seize at the same time?

seen it in our shop many many times...

think of the relationship between the plunger and barrel assembly (the component inside the injectors that pushes the fuel out of the nozzle at over 20kpsi)...as a 'piston' in a cylinder bore...without piston rings..

the clearance b/w these components is .0001 or less..so any gross lack of lubricity in the fuel..be that water, gasoline, 'alternative' fuels contaminated with caustic cleaning agents...

for all 8 to fail simultaneously is rare...but if the fuel itself has not even been sampled or considered at this point...it's definitely something to look at.

Mdub~ (I wasn't certain in my previous post...)

do you in fact have:

FICM sync?

also is the ICP_actual reading realistic? ie, the ECM isn't displaying 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1250psi when cranking?? if the ICP_actual steadily ramps up from 0 to a near desired pressure...value..then that would be normal...but if the ICP_actual reads basically nothing for a few seconds of cranking and then 'bingo' it hits the desired pressure...then the ECM may be substituting/displaying a(n erroneous) default value for actual pressure.

 

[F-250-Owner]

could he just unplug the icp so that it will default and start if thats the issue?

 

[golfer]

could he just unplug the icp so that it will default and start if thats the issue?

no

a bad ICP sensor won't prevent the truck from starting...

a lack of (mechanical) ICP pressure will

 

[F-250-Owner]

got ya.... Im learning.... slowly but surely

 

[Mdub707]

seen it in our shop many many times...

think of the relationship between the plunger and barrel assembly (the component inside the injectors that pushes the fuel out of the nozzle at over 20kpsi)...as a 'piston' in a cylinder bore...without piston rings..

the clearance b/w these components is .0001 or less..so any gross lack of lubricity in the fuel..be that water, gasoline, 'alternative' fuels contaminated with caustic cleaning agents...

for all 8 to fail simultaneously is rare...but if the fuel itself has not even been sampled or considered at this point...it's definitely something to look at.

Mdub~ (I wasn't certain in my previous post...)

do you in fact have:

FICM sync?

also is the ICP_actual reading realistic? ie, the ECM isn't displaying 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1250psi when cranking?? if the ICP_actual steadily ramps up from 0 to a near desired pressure...value..then that would be normal...but if the ICP_actual reads basically nothing for a few seconds of cranking and then 'bingo' it hits the desired pressure...then the ECM may be substituting/displaying a(n erroneous) default value for actual pressure.

I highly doubt it's a fuel issue, but I guess it's worth looking into!? Like I said, filter are new and I only use motorcraft/international fuel filters and always fill up at the big diesel station in town where I know a few local logging companies fill up too.

ICP actual starts lower and comes up slowly like it should. I did pull the top fuel filter yesterday and turned the key to ensure I was getting fuel in there, and the fuel looked very clean fwiw. No water in fuel light or anything of that nature either. I haven't run anything but diesel through this thing in the last 8 months or so, though I was using WVO before (properly filtered and burned, but that's a whole other subject). Truck has been running very good with no other issues, always starts right up, never any smoke on start up, idles smooth, can pull right away after starting without having to worry about stiction etc... I take care of anything that needs taken care of. Oil never goes more than 5k miles.


Now, as for FICM SYNC, I'm not sure, this software doesn't show a PID for it. That's why I'm trying to order AE asap here, waiting for some vendors to hit me back. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20247

So when you first turn the key and the injectors "buzz" what is actually buzzing in them???

 

[golfer]

I highly doubt it's a fuel issue, but I guess it's worth looking into!? Like I said, filter are new and I only use motorcraft/international fuel filters and always fill up at the big diesel station in town where I know a few local logging companies fill up too.

ICP actual starts lower and comes up slowly like it should. I did pull the top fuel filter yesterday and turned the key to ensure I was getting fuel in there, and the fuel looked very clean fwiw. No water in fuel light or anything of that nature either. I haven't run anything but diesel through this thing in the last 8 months or so, though I was using WVO before (properly filtered and burned, but that's a whole other subject). Truck has been running very good with no other issues, always starts right up, never any smoke on start up, idles smooth, can pull right away after starting without having to worry about stiction etc... I take care of anything that needs taken care of. Oil never goes more than 5k miles.


Now, as for FICM SYNC, I'm not sure, this software doesn't show a PID for it. That's why I'm trying to order AE asap here, waiting for some vendors to hit me back. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20247

So when you first turn the key and the injectors "buzz" what is actually buzzing in them???

what is actually buzzing inside the injectors?

the spool valve shuttling horizontally from L to R

if you don't hear that sound...errr...

got another inj you can plug in (externally) to the wiring harness to see if it clicks/buzzes, LOL ?

the key on buzzing is in some FICM strategies...and not in others..FWIW

and as far as the fuel issue...

it's pretty simple...if you DIDN'T jusssssssst get fuel the same day this chit went down...then I wouldn't worry about it...however...if you DID get fuel day of/before, etc....then I would proobbbbbably atleast smell the freaking fuel, take a sample and try to light it with a flame..

diesel will not light..gas would, etc..

 

[Mdub707]

Injectors buzz loud and clear when I turn the key, no issues there, I just wasn't sure if a "stuck" injector would still buzz. See where I was going with it?

I'm just not terribly familiar with the insides of a 6.0 injector. I do have a spare one here that I had intended on using as a science project and tearing apart, but I can hear all of mine buzz loud and clear anyways.

I haven't come across one of the older flashes that buzzed after shutdown yet, and I've probably tried close to 75 different FICM's on here. The 7 pin I was running was my favorite as for programming, the 4 pin on here now is my spare that was going to be a 58V unit, but now it's serving duty.

I did not Jussssst get the fuel, so I think it's safe to rule that out. I smelled it real good yesterday when I took the filter out... smelled like diesel. Chewed my finger nail this morning, still tastes like diesel too LOL