Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

Tom S · May 2, 2014

mwx5 said:
This is a typical post of yours from what I have seen, how much better you are than everyone else. Be careful, you sound like that Farmer guy and look where he is now.
Educating the forums is one thing, beating your own chest is totally different.
I'm still unclear which was your intention here.
I am very happy in my injector decision. I paid nearly $300 LESS for my 160/100% than you sell your 160/30%, and my truck runs great.
I even got to watch mine flow tested and know what they flow, thanks for your concern though.

Looks like someone needs a signature so we would know what your good set up is. I would assume you went through Nate as you are in Ohio.

bruce · May 2, 2014

Or rosewood.

Hotrodtractor · May 2, 2014

My personal opinion is that the trend in the aftermarket industry for these smaller nozzles on HEUI injectors and the long PW has come about over the years for just being generally substantially more forgiving than a setup with larger tips. Personally I wouldn't have a problem driving 200s on the street, but I know that if there are ANY issues with the truck that they will be shown quite quickly with larger tips. In order to properly utilize these larger tips a commitment must be made to tuning them in and ensuring that everything is working correctly. As these trucks age, wear out, become cheaper, etc.... it is much better for the masses to have something that is more forgiving and less finicky - that is the corner of the market for smaller tips - the guys wanting to replace a worn out set of sticks with something a little bit more peppy and move on. That line of thought isn't necessarily what I would do - but it makes the most sense for 99% of the people looking for "more power" and can easily make them happy instead of giving them something that potentially will just show every problem that they really have with the truck and also require some pretty intense tuning tweaks to make it run like it should.

Tim @ P.I.S. · May 6, 2014

Im sorry it took so long to get back to this.

V-Ref said:
The actual PW needed to inject 400cc out of 200% nozzle would depend on ICP and internal injector modifications given factors such as IDM, oil/fuel viscosity, and injector type were the same :evil

Some of this is correct, some has no effect on quantity of fuel injected.
We run several tests on every set that leaves. And a 400cc/200% injector is one of the slowest to fully injector fuel out there.

I can't publicly disclose how fast these injectors are because...well...it's Top Secret :lookaround:

The 400cc capacity was so to accomodate potential future power goals with a nozzle swap.

Understandable. But a lot more work is required to upgrade them to anything else. Believe it or not, there is a science to injector design.

This is like saying a truck with a 5 gallon gas tank runs out of gas 4 times as fast as a truck with a 20 gallon gas tank.

You're a respected injector builder....what advantages are there to "emptying" an injector. I don't think this is what you meant to advocate here, but some may read it that way.

We modify for 1) quality injection (idle) 2) for speed.

It looks like the limitations of the 7.3 fuel delivery system, and head flow, limit fuel only power potential to about 700-750 hp...would you agree? So if that's the case, why do you sell any injector with a larger capacity than a B-Code with a 200% nozzle on it?

We do not offer anything larger than 300cc. Anything larger is special ordered when we agree with the customer really needs something else. We do not use larger than 400% nozzles at this time. There is no need in trying to push more than 300cc out of a nozzle only 400%. The time is not there. very few situations require something different.

In your Development of your injectors, haven't you seen an advantage to injector refill between injection events, by not totally emptying the injector of fuel (the area that transitions from tan to red on the lower part of the injector body in the video below for those that (like me or others that aren't injector builders) might not understand the HEUI injector very well), especially at high RPMs where time to refil is extremely small?

I'm just not seeing the atomization "advantage" that a 30% nozzle would have based of my experience with Unlimited Diesel's Skunk Works Hybrids/200% nozzles and Gearhead Area 51 tuning. I mean the truck runs great, idles great, cold weather start/operations are stock or smoother than stock, 18-19 mpg as a ZF6 consistently, tows, and makes all the power you could ever want in a DD street driven truck. You've got customers just like me....how do you convince them that a 30% nozzle would make thier truck run better?

I respond not from a adversarial perspective, but rather one trying to understand the point of this thread, achieve answers to the questions I posed above, and share/increase knowledge of a truck that we're all enthusiastic & passioniate about despite it not having been built in 10+ years :fordoval:

http://youtu.be/FOe6L5ZsIn0

V-Ref said:
The hydraulic limitations of the HPO side of the injector to recover between injection events for an individual injector, as well as the IDM/solenoid side of the injector sytem start to create some fuel delivery limitations at higher rpm.

NOT TRUE

mwx5 said:
This is a typical post of yours from what I have seen, how much better you are than everyone else. Be careful, you sound like that Farmer guy and look where he is now. Obviously you do not know me so back away from the keyboard before you start throwing insults around. I in the past was the most informative person that knew injectors. I shared probably way more than I should have and got nothing but flack. SO my mouth stays shut most of the time. I have always been one to share knowledge unlike your FARMER reference that did nothing but steal knowledge.
Educating the forums is one thing, beating your own chest is totally different.
I'm still unclear which was your intention here. Intention is simple. In the same amount of time (PW) most tuners call for,(much less than some) you have the opportunity at the same amount of fuel. This same amount we have seen burn cleaner and make nearly the same hp. All at a savings.
I am very happy in my injector decision. I paid nearly $300 LESS for my 160/100% than you sell your 160/30%, and my truck runs great.
I even got to watch mine flow tested and know what they flow, thanks for your concern though.

Very happy you are happy with your decision.
Are we the cheapest? I know we are not. We are not cheap on anything we do. Are we a value for the product the consumer gets, more than you know.

Hotrodtractor said:
My personal opinion is that the trend in the aftermarket industry for these smaller nozzles on HEUI injectors and the long PW has come about over the years for just being generally substantially more forgiving than a setup with larger tips. Personally I wouldn't have a problem driving 200s on the street, but I know that if there are ANY issues with the truck that they will be shown quite quickly with larger tips. In order to properly utilize these larger tips a commitment must be made to tuning them in and ensuring that everything is working correctly. As these trucks age, wear out, become cheaper, etc.... it is much better for the masses to have something that is more forgiving and less finicky - that is the corner of the market for smaller tips - the guys wanting to replace a worn out set of sticks with something a little bit more peppy and move on. That line of thought isn't necessarily what I would do - but it makes the most sense for 99% of the people looking for "more power" and can easily make them happy instead of giving them something that potentially will just show every problem that they really have with the truck and also require some pretty intense tuning tweaks to make it run like it should.

For us it is not the size of the nozzle that makes it harder to build. It is capacity. The larger the capacity the harder to balance a set. That is the reason for the additional cost, from us. As stated before the 160/30% injector works for 60% of the customers we deal with. 30% for the 175/80's and the remainders either A) have special needs or B) to hard headed to understand what they REALLY NEED is not what their "FORUM" buddy's told them to get.

V-Ref · May 6, 2014

On your "not true" answer/response above....it seems incomplete....Please correct it so it is true

Tim @ P.I.S. · May 6, 2014

V-Ref said:
On your "not true" answer/response above....it seems incomplete....Please correct it so it is true

From above.................

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
I shared probably way more than I should have and got nothing but flack. SO my mouth stays shut most of the time.

But here is something to chew on. The almighty SHO injectors.

Its a sad story, so much went into this design that the simplest issues were over looked. Sad when a $5000 set of injectors were out performed by a set of our 230/100 injectors.

So its not "hydraulic limitations".............

lincolnlocker · May 6, 2014

V-Ref said:
The hydraulic limitations of the HPO side of the injector to recover between injection events for an individual injector, as well as the IDM/solenoid side of the injector sytem start to create some fuel delivery limitations at higher rpm.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46311

I thought it was the fuel delivery system that was the limitation not the injector?

live life full throttle

DocBar · May 6, 2014

lincolnlocker said:
I thought it was the fuel delivery system that was the limitation not the injector?

live life full throttle

I thought it was in the PW available to deliver X amount of fuel in Y amount of time with HPO being the limiting factor, and the CC's of fuel was there to make sure you had enough fuel on hand. Ever increasing RPM meaning ever decreasing PW.

mustube · May 6, 2014

Why is PW a limiting factor? Does a common-rail not have the same dwindling PW scenario? I would like to see a response from someone who knows what they are talking about, but from what I understand, you only have a certain amount of crank rotation for your injection cycle, and spinning the motor at higher RPMs shortens that window of the injection cycle. If you are complaining about pulse width then your injector either isn't refilling fuel fast enough or your HPO system isn't keeping up (either with volume or the HPO system is too restrictive). Say someone wanted to spin their 7.3 up to 4500 RPM, what is the useable PW there? How much does an off the shelf injector with a 400% nozzle flow at that PW?

Fordguy100 · May 7, 2014

mustube said:
Why is PW a limiting factor? Does a common-rail not have the same dwindling PW scenario? I would like to see a response from someone who knows what they are talking about, but from what I understand, you only have a certain amount of crank rotation for your injection cycle, and spinning the motor at higher RPMs shortens that window of the injection cycle. If you are complaining about pulse width then your injector either isn't refilling fuel fast enough or your HPO system isn't keeping up (either with volume or the HPO system is too restrictive). Say someone wanted to spin their 7.3 up to 4500 RPM, what is the useable PW there? How much does an off the shelf injector with a 400% nozzle flow at that PW?

Yes, but I would imagine that a common rail has a much more constant/less fluctuating fuel PSI available at the tip of the injector vs a HEUI. Tip being after the fuel has gone through the injector and is being injected.

mustube · May 7, 2014

I'm pretty sure it has much more to do with injection style than fuel psi fluctuation. A common rail injector is like hitting the trigger on a pressure washer, and the amount you let out is determined by how long you hold the trigger, and if you want to flow more, just put a bigger tip on and hold the trigger down longer. HEUI is like a big turkey baster. You're set on volume, it just depends on how hard you can push it out (ICP) and how big the opening on the tip is (nozzle), then you have to refill it after you empty it. If you want more, you have to get bigger turkey basters, push harder on it and get bigger tips.

V-Ref · May 7, 2014

Tim

Thank you for your responses.

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
From above.................

But here is something to chew on. The almighty SHO injectors.

Its a sad story, so much went into this design that the simplest issues were over looked. Sad when a $5000 set of injectors were out performed by a set of our 230/100 injectors.

What are the power numbers your 238/100 injectors have made?

Tim @ P.I.S. said:
So its not "hydraulic limitations".............

I believe we'll just have to agree to disagree on your statement above. If our HUEI injectors aren't HYDRAULICALLY limited...then...????

This isn't a brand vs brand deal.....or being argumentative....just trying to have a campfire discussion here. Thanks in advance.

DZL JIM · May 7, 2014

mustube said:
...Say someone wanted to spin their 7.3 up to 4500 RPM, what is the useable PW there?

From the pw chart we use for our flow bench, approx. 2.5 ms is the max you can see at 4500 or the IDM simply won't fire a single shot.

Hotrodtractor · May 7, 2014

mustube said:
I'm pretty sure it has much more to do with injection style than fuel psi fluctuation. A common rail injector is like hitting the trigger on a pressure washer, and the amount you let out is determined by how long you hold the trigger, and if you want to flow more, just put a bigger tip on and hold the trigger down longer. HEUI is like a big turkey baster. You're set on volume, it just depends on how hard you can push it out (ICP) and how big the opening on the tip is (nozzle), then you have to refill it after you empty it. If you want more, you have to get bigger turkey basters, push harder on it and get bigger tips.

That is actually a pretty good analogy for both systems. Kudos.

Common rail injection systems have identical PW limitations, but since the fuel rate is higher, it rarely ever gets talked about. There are those of us that would like the 7.3 segment of the industry to drift towards higher flowing injectors, but it doesn't happen for lots of reasons, mostly because they require more effort to dial in correctly and show more flaws in the user's system (oil, fuel, sensors, etc...).

FWIW - I'm making roughly 640rwhp on 37s Using 1.9ms of PW on a common rail injection system. I know of a HEUI motor on 33s??? that made 530ish rwhp using 1.5ms, but most would be closer to double the PW (2.5-3.0) for that same power level.

B.A.D Performance · May 7, 2014

I believe dyno proven did damn near 600hp with Tim's 238/100s with a 38r turbo.

Hotrodtractor · May 7, 2014

B.A.D Performance said:
I believe dyno proven did damn near 600hp with Tim's 238/100s with a 38r turbo.

To me the central point of making power on injectors, turning RPMS, keeping engines alive by keeping cylinder pressures in check and keeping the torque out from down low, the central part of this conversation needs to revolve around flow rate. So the question I would pose is what was the PW at that peak power level.

Sadly there is some really good discussion in here, but most of it has nothing to do or benefit anyone that is shopping for a 160cc injector and it all stemmed from the thread title.