Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

DZL JIM · Sep 19, 2016

Charles said:
What pw values are you running in the 2000rpm range anyway? Like 2.xx? If it starts with a 3, that might be something to try. Lower it more...

Ok, I am missing something somewhere. I do no see a direct relationship between pw and rpm in any maps, without first picking a throttle position, ICP, MFD etc.
I can tell you with my scanner I am seeing about 1.5 ms at 2000 rpm.

Charles · Sep 19, 2016

DZL JIM said:
Ok, I am missing something somewhere. I do no see a direct relationship between pw and rpm in any maps, without first picking a throttle position, ICP, MFD etc.
I can tell you with my scanner I am seeing about 1.5 ms at 2000 rpm.

There's not.... you just kept mentioning that rpm range so I wanted to know what pw value you were seeing. RPM is indirectly related in that MFD and ICP can be limited based on rpm, which will pull pw down with it.

What nozzle are you tuning? Flat to the floor 1.5 actually seems low. Is it smoking? If not you might need more duration in fact.

What's ICP? If it's not 3000 when you're struggling for power, make it so. For starters I would err on the way to much ICP too soon until it's bucky and jumpy. Then you can tune in the duration until you max the power available without smothering the fire. Lastly, back the ramp rate for the ICP back down until it just feeds the fire without too much aggression.

I can't tell you how many times I have steepened up the ICP table running toward full MFD with great results.

Also bare in mind that shallowing up the MFD desired table with increased pedal will control the application of power as the ICP table steepens.

Key point again.... if you're struggling to spool and you're not at 3000psi, steepen the ICP table until you do reach 3000psi at that MFD value.

DZL JIM · Sep 20, 2016

I got kind of busy at work.
If it's OK, I'll post up some of the data log that might answer a bunch of your questions at the same time.
Thanks.

DZL JIM · Sep 21, 2016

I use 2200 RPM as a view point for spool up as I can usually tell at that point if the motor is either ready to go, or it pukes tons of smoke.

Stock tune, spooled great, rolled out the shop and tried spooling up when EOT was 100* (forgot to record PW):
APP 37.59
EOT 43
ICP 16.47
MFD 47.68
MGP 63.75 (Boost came up quick, not much smoke, I let off and didn't push it.)
RPM 2200

Same tune (stock) after 1 hour of messing around with QuarterHorse, trans temp NOT stone cold but warmed up to 100* - 115*, smoked like hell, couldn't get more than 8 psi boost.:
APP 50.48
EOT 56
PW 1.75
ICP 15.87
MFD 61.81
MGP 58
RPM 2200

My modified stock tune, with ICP ramped way up, PW and MFD dropped over stock at 2200 rpm, couldn't get any more RPM than 2000, smoked like hell, no boost:

APP 60
EOT 57
PW 1.58
ICP 21.74
MFD 56
MGP 30.5
RPM 1995

Charles · Sep 21, 2016

DZL JIM said:
I use 2200 RPM as a view point for spool up as I can usually tell at that point if the motor is either ready to go, or it pukes tons of smoke.

Stock tune, spooled great, rolled out the shop and tried spooling up when EOT was 100* (forgot to record PW):
APP 37.59
EOT 43
ICP 16.47
MFD 47.68
MGP 63.75 (Boost came up quick, not much smoke, I let off and didn't push it.)
RPM 2200

Same tune (stock) after 1 hour of messing around with QuarterHorse, trans temp NOT stone cold but warmed up to 100* - 115*, smoked like hell, couldn't get more than 8 psi boost.:
APP 50.48
EOT 56
PW 1.75
ICP 15.87
MFD 61.81
MGP 58
RPM 2200

My modified stock tune, with ICP ramped way up, PW and MFD dropped over stock at 2200 rpm, couldn't get any more RPM than 2000, smoked like hell, no boost:

APP 60
EOT 57
PW 1.58
ICP 21.74
MFD 56
MGP 30.5
RPM 1995

Are you burning the stock program to the same chip or whatever you're using or are you just pulling the chip/flash module?

If you're pulling it, I would suggest actually burning the stock file to the chip to make sure there's not an addressing/corruption problem happening when you're writing to the chip. In fact, take the stock file, open it in your tuning software template, save it as say "Stock Test" and then flash that to the chip to ensure you don't have any corruption taking place.

If all you honestly did was to pull a little pulsewidth, then the truck could not respond as you indicate.

I feel like something may be ill-addressed somewhere.

On Edit: The file on the PCM and the file you're tuning from called "stock"..... do you have any way to know they are actually the same??? Sounds like no...

DZL JIM · Sep 21, 2016

Charles said:
Are you burning the stock program to the same chip or whatever you're using or are you just pulling the chip/flash module?

If you're pulling it, I would suggest actually burning the stock file to the chip to make sure there's not an addressing/corruption problem happening when you're writing to the chip. In fact, take the stock file, open it in your tuning software template, save it as say "Stock Test" and then flash that to the chip to ensure you don't have any corruption taking place.

If all you honestly did was to pull a little pulsewidth, then the truck could not respond as you indicate.

I feel like something may be ill-addressed somewhere.

On Edit: The file on the PCM and the file you're tuning from called "stock"..... do you have any way to know they are actually the same??? Sounds like no...

I do have what I believe are some corrupt "stock" files, long story but not relevant as to how I know.
So, after that episode I loaded a stock file off of a TS CD that I've had for god knows how long and started from there.
Then I got the Quarterhorse, and with that I had to get all new files (256k), so my "Stock" file is fresh from Bill Cohron about 2 weeks ago. I am confident that stock file is in fact stock and a good file.
Everything I do now is straight off the Q-horse, I don't have a chip in the car anymore.

I am at the point where nothing makes sense, except yet another issue with my transmission, preventing the motor from spinning past 2k rpm on spool up.
I am suspending any more tuning head scratching until we pull the trans and do some inspection there.

Thanks for the help, I'll let you know when I get back at it.

Charles · Sep 21, 2016

But when you test it "Stock"... that is still with the quarterhorse "chip" IN the PCM and with the "Stock" file loaded on it right?

I just wanted to make sure you weren't pulling the chip to switch back and forth between stock and modified because the eeprom on the PCM board could have a totally different file on it, and most likely does...

Anything that plugs into the PCM through the J3 Port is a chip in my book. Plus chip is only 4 letters, easy to type, blah, blah, blah.... it's the thing with the file on it that is plugged into the J3 port.

You're not disconnecting from the PCM to test "Stock" right?

Because if works fine on one file but not another, then it's NOT a trans problem!

My take...

DZL JIM · Sep 22, 2016

Charles said:
But when you test it "Stock"... that is still with the quarterhorse "chip" IN the PCM and with the "Stock" file loaded on it right?

Sorry, I guess that's how I distinguish the difference between a TS 'chip' and the Quarterhorse 'module'.
You are correct. My STOCK file is a tune on the Q-Horse module.
But a few months ago when I ran into corrupt files, I pulled the TS chip completely and it ran and spooled up great. I even swapped the PCM to make sure it wasn't a flashed PCM of some sort and it spooled up just as well on 2 different PCM's. That's when I dug up the TS CD and moved forward with a fresh file. Spooled up great.
Then the Q-Horse 256k Stock file from Bill, Spooled up great.
Through this whole process over the past few months the trans has gone though several repairs and upgrades and remains a huge variable.

Now, for the sake of arguement, I will remove the Q-horse and try it again, juuuuust to make sure, as you suggest. If spool up is still poor after it warms up with no Q-Horse module, I feel that I am left with a trans issue.

Charles · Sep 22, 2016

DZL JIM said:
Sorry, I guess that's how I distinguish the difference between a TS 'chip' and the Quarterhorse 'module'.
You are correct. My STOCK file is a tune on the Q-Horse module.
But a few months ago when I ran into corrupt files, I pulled the TS chip completely and it ran and spooled up great. I even swapped the PCM to make sure it wasn't a flashed PCM of some sort and it spooled up just as well on 2 different PCM's. That's when I dug up the TS CD and moved forward with a fresh file. Spooled up great.
Then the Q-Horse 256k Stock file from Bill, Spooled up great.
Through this whole process over the past few months the trans has gone though several repairs and upgrades and remains a huge variable.

Now, for the sake of arguement, I will remove the Q-horse and try it again, juuuuust to make sure, as you suggest. If spool up is still poor after it warms up with no Q-Horse module, I feel that I am left with a trans issue.

Exactly. That's all I wanted to make sure you were accounting for. I have actually had my template off before (my own mistake) and went through a lot of crap before I figured it out.

DZL JIM · Sep 22, 2016

Well.......
:cursing:

I pulled the module and have a bare PCM:
Below is the 2200 rpm section of the datalog, and Trans at 150° +-

APP 45.6
EOT 66
PW 1.87
ICP 17.39
MFD 57.93
MGP 52.25
RPM 2203

Spooled up perfectly, every time (3 or 4 tries). 0 to 15 psi in under 6 seconds and would have kept climbing.

Now what?
2 different PCM's, multiple TS chips, a QuarterHorse module and tune.
It only spools up with nothing in the J3 port.

Charles · Sep 22, 2016

Get Bill to pull the file off that PCM. Or ask him if he already knows WTF is going on.

Bill can actually retrieve the code from that PCM if you had the time to send it to him, although he might already know what's going on and be able to avoid that.

DZL JIM · Sep 22, 2016

I have already emailed him.
I anxiously await his help.

Edit: FWIW, a few months back I first started with a stock MLEO PCM and it behaved the same way. Great with no chip, made several runs at the track with no chip when I figured out that I had corrupt files. Spooled great.
Then a few weeks back I took a spare PCM and flashed it to MLE1 with our IDS so that I could live tune it.
So the PCM in there now has factory Ford tune from IDS.
If that matters.

DZL JIM · Sep 25, 2016

With help from Moates, I was able to pull the code/tune from my PCM using the Quarterhorse. I compared it to what I was using as a stock tune, and they are 100% the same as far as I can tell.
I am at a loss here until I can get some help from someone as to what to look at next.
:shrug:

Charles · Sep 25, 2016

DZL JIM said:
With help from Moates, I was able to pull the code/tune from my PCM using the Quarterhorse. I compared it to what I was using as a stock tune, and they are 100% the same as far as I can tell.
I am at a loss here until I can get some help from someone as to what to look at next.
:shrug:

Probably can't use the variable to check the variable...

My Tweeccer module went bananas one time (or I did) and I couldn't get power to save my life. I ended up going back to really old files and starting over again. Somewhere along the line something got saved wrong was all I could ever figure.

Truck would NOT come up on power no matter what I did.

I would work to confirm that it always run poorly on the chip and always runs fine without.

Because if it ever runs fine with the chip or poorly without then you have another variable in the mix.

DZL JIM · Sep 26, 2016

Charles said:
Probably can't use the variable to check the variable...

The PCM was flashed with IDS. I loaded the QH with one of my 'bad' modified tunes with Minotaur, fired up the motor and confirmed with a few parameters that it at least appeared to be running on my modified tune. I then shut it off, and pulled the PCM coding and compared it to the 256k file from Bill, and an older 224k file and they were all identical. I did this twice with a different modified tune to make sure I wasn't actually pulling coding from the QH.
Any other suggestions?

Charles said:
I would work to confirm that it always run poorly on the chip and always runs fine without.
Because if it ever runs fine with the chip or poorly without then you have another variable in the mix.

How many times would make you confident of the chip/no-chip issue?
I have run over 2 dozen passes with a chip and never was able to spool up.
I ran about a dozen passes with no chip and it always spooled up well.
I sat in my driveway with a chip with only a stock tune on it and it wouldn't spool up, pulled the chip and minutes later it spooled up great.

I am with you, I need to narrow this down. I just really don't even know what to try next.

Charles · Sep 28, 2016

DZL JIM said:
The PCM was flashed with IDS. I loaded the QH with one of my 'bad' modified tunes with Minotaur, fired up the motor and confirmed with a few parameters that it at least appeared to be running on my modified tune. I then shut it off, and pulled the PCM coding and compared it to the 256k file from Bill, and an older 224k file and they were all identical. I did this twice with a different modified tune to make sure I wasn't actually pulling coding from the QH.
Any other suggestions?

I'm saying that using the quarterhorse to pull down the file from the pcm is using the very thing we're wondering about corrupting files to produce the file you're comparing against to check the corruption, lol. If it's corrupting files then it could very well corrupt that one just the same when it saved it down. Then of course they would look the same.

And secondly, for comparing, I would be using a hex editor. You can get a free editor but locating the addresses pertinent to our calibration area is a bit tricky at first. Bill would be very helpful there too.

Is there any way other than that quarterhorse to get your hands on the file from that PCM?

I can't believe that Bill doesn't probably know what's up or at least have some good suspects.

How many times would make you confident of the chip/no-chip issue?
I have run over 2 dozen passes with a chip and never was able to spool up.
I ran about a dozen passes with no chip and it always spooled up well.
I sat in my driveway with a chip with only a stock tune on it and it wouldn't spool up, pulled the chip and minutes later it spooled up great.

It's not how many times it does what is expected, it's whether or not it ever doesn't. If it is dead consistent then I'd go find someone else with tuning software and have them burn a chip with the change you want, and try that to see if anything in your setup is corrupt. Your template has been the same the whole time?

Something is up. I would step completely away from my own setup and get another party to make the change and send you the file on a chip. Send like one position as the pure, stock file, then a couple other positions with simple changes that will be readily perceivable.

I am with you, I need to narrow this down. I just really don't even know what to try next.

Get away from your setup for a second and confirm that someone else burning a chip either does or does not produce the issue.

DZL JIM · Sep 28, 2016

Charles said:
Is there any way other than that quarterhorse to get your hands on the file from that PCM?

None that I am aware of. I consider myself lucky (or fortunate) that Moates took the time to help me out with what they did.

Charles said:
I can't believe that Bill doesn't probably know what's up or at least have some good suspects.

I am still patiently waiting for his response to several emails I have sent.

Charles said:
Your template has been the same the whole time?

No. I started with one I had on my laptop, not sure where it was from. I then used one straight from my old TS CD. I then used the 256k bin that Bill sent me for the QH. It's been a consistent issue regardless of the template, and whether it's a TS chip (3 different chips, but same burner) or the QuarterHorse.

Charles said:
Something is up. I would step completely away from my own setup and get another party to make the change and send you the file on a chip. Send like one position as the pure, stock file, then a couple other positions with simple changes that will be readily perceivable.

Understood, and agreed. I have reached out to several people and have not yet had any response back.

superpsd · Sep 28, 2016

So your saying your seeing a differnce in a stock calibration on the pcm without a chip and with a chip with the same stock calibration while trying different chips? Maybe a PCM issue. Im curious to kniw what the issue ends up being as the chip is forcing the pcm to bypass the internal rom and use an external rom. If the files are not corrupt maybe time to swap in another pcm to see if things change?

DZL JIM · Sep 29, 2016

Yes, that's what I will work on tomorrow or this weekend.
I remembered that I have my old auto trans PCM and related tuning files. I will be swapping that in and trying that set-up.
Consensus seems to be an issue with the PCM and not the tuning files, but I am not ruling anything out right now. I am just trying the easiest things and what I can actually try myself without outside help.