ZF6 -650 rebuild and other things I've done on my early 99 7.3 F350

[Dave_Nevada]

Sure lol, Michelin AT2. Belts breaks and tread separation issues, I totaled my parents excursion. Tires were 3 years old. Had three tires do it, only this last time, I blew on the rear while towing a 24ft enclosed trailer.. jack knifed going 70mph.. the tread blew off the tire, the thing still had air in it!

3 personal friends that also had the same issues.. one friend on his Chevy dually had the belts break on ALL 6 tires within a 3 year period, keep in mind these aren’t abused vehicles. Other friend has the Michelin LTX where the tread just started to peel off...



The kicker? Discount Tire knows the AT2 has issues, which means Michelin knows... yet they won’t do a safety recall..

Just lost all hope in the Michelin truck tires.

------------------------------

Good to know Jomax. Sorry about your parents 'X'.

"Michelin recalling 1.3M tires over tread separation. Michelin North America has issued a recall of 1.3 million of its LTX M/S tire, produced from January 2010 to June 2012 at its Nova Scotia plant, size LT225/75R16 115/112R LRE. A "tread/belt endurance" issue lead could to tread separation, tread loss or rapid air loss ...Dec 16, 2013"

Google "recall Michelin LTX tires."

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mic...ome..69i57.20842j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Nonetheless, what tire did they go with after that?

 

[Jomax]

Yeah, they only recalled that Particular size but what about all the other sizes? It probably was a glue issue across all sizes.

He’ll be getting either nitto or Toyo.




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[Dave_Nevada]

Yeah, they only recalled that Particular size but what about all the other sizes? It probably was a glue issue across all sizes.

He’ll be getting either nitto or Toyo.




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You might want to pursue them in this manner:
https://www.colson.com/michelin-recalls-tires-due-to-tire-tread-separation-dangers

If they haven't issued a recall on those tires and you have a loss, you have a limited amount of time to go after them (according to your State law statute of limitations). That's usually 2 years from the date of loss. If you make it under the wire by filing a claim (under two years), that is when the clock actually starts.

I do not take defective products lightly, especially tires. They are too important to ignore.

Have you tried a legal remedy?

 

[Dave_Nevada]

Check this link for a recall on Light Truck Tires:

https://www.michelinman.com/US/en/help/safety-recalls/latitude-tour.html

 

[Jomax]

You might want to pursue them in this manner:
https://www.colson.com/michelin-recalls-tires-due-to-tire-tread-separation-dangers

If they haven't issued a recall on those tires and you have a loss, you have a limited amount of time to go after them (according to your State law statute of limitations). That's usually 2 years from the date of loss. If you make it under the wire by filing a claim (under two years), that is when the clock actually starts.

I do not take defective products lightly, especially tires. They are too important to ignore.

Have you tried a legal remedy?

Michelin is paying for the Damage on the trailer and Excursion. Problem with the excursion is they won’t pay the amount needed to fix it as it’s over what’s its worth. So technically it should be totaled. Crappy ordeal.



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[lincolnlocker]

Holy crap dave!!! Nice thread!! Badass write up!!

live life full throttle

 

[Dave_Nevada]

Michelin is paying for the Damage on the trailer and Excursion. Problem with the excursion is they won’t pay the amount needed to fix it as it’s over what’s its worth. So technically it should be totaled. Crappy ordeal.



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Yes, I understand. Like any accident/collision, even if you're not at fault, they try to screw you in every way imaginable.

That's why you sue the ever living sh*t out of them. If they are at fault from defective product, they are 100% liable and should pay the full amount to make you whole. What they fear the most is a multi-year class action lawsuit from provable negligence, but that can only be brought by folks with 'standing' (those have actually had losses as a result of their lousy product).

Like I said, it might be worth contacting the lawyer outfit that sued them in the first place to see if they can offer a remedy. It's not Michelin that does this crap, it's their insurance coverage that does. It's a 'defacto dare' to you when they don't offer 100% restitution.

Those SOB's play this game to minimize their liability so they can slap each other on the back in their board meetings just to boast, "We mitigated the losses!!!" - in normal speak, that means "Look!!! We screwed them good", we didn't have to pay 100%; thus, justifying their pathetic existence.

That makes their CFO wiggle in excitement. Meanwhile, you're made to suffer for no other reason than a 'numbers game'.

I don't hate anyone, but if there were a cause or reason to do so, lawyers would be first on my list. :biggun: :flipa: I'm confident I'm not alone in that sentiment. However, you have to hire sharks to eat sharks.

Since Lawyers exist- we are forced to deal with it, no matter how distasteful it may be. That's a lousy choice, but there it is.

 

[Dave_Nevada]

Holy crap dave!!! Nice thread!! Badass write up!!

live life full throttle

Thank you Sir.

From the beginning I kept meticulous notes and documented everything during my rebuild. Essentially, teaching myself (slowly and carefully) over a span of a few months how to rebuild a ZF6.

I have mentioned it before- it was 'taxing'. It's not for everyone, but honestly, from what I have read, some of these shops that do a claimed 'rebuild' are ripping the consumer off. :bs:

I didn't realize that FACT until I was finished with my build. That might be the same conclusion for you too, if you did what I did.

I don't mind paying- as long as I get true face value. But who will advertise "We do a half-a*s rebuild job, choose us!" ointlaugh:

Answer: zero

I'm like anyone- if you cheat me, thou shalt suffer the wrath in ways only hell can reveal. I'd rather eat a mouth full of ear wax than put up with being cheated.

But how would anyone know if they're not educated about just what is right and what is wrong?

Hence my effort.

 

[ja_cain]

I love threads like this, but your colourful personality makes it an order of magnitude more enjoyable. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience Dave!

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[Dave_Nevada]

I love threads like this, but your colourful personality makes it an order of magnitude more enjoyable. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience Dave!

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Ever see the 70's show?

If you have, imagine a real life 'Red Forman'.

There you have it.

When that show started appearing on TV, the kids came screaming out to the garage (I was filthy from 'leading in' a roof-line with a blowtorch and solder on a 64 1.2 Mustang) and they demanded I 'come see'.

Well, okay.

I looked at the TV for a bit and how his character was played and I 'snarled'. Back out to the garage I went.

What? You expected me to laugh at that? Nothing funny about that, that's the way life is!!

Eric!!! My foot, your a*s!!

I did find it amusing they thought I was some sort of dinosaur.

Truth be known, all men of my era were like that.

At least the one's that weren't light in the loafers.

I can't even imagine what Deer Camp would be like sitting around gossiping about what happened on Oprah or someone 'unfriended me' on that idiotic Facebook. uke:

LOL

 

[lincolnlocker]

Lol.nice!

live life full throttle

 

[m j]

Clean enough to eat off her good German belly. Even Herr Willy Messerschmitt would be proud!

what did you clean the case with?

 

[Dave_Nevada]

what did you clean the case with?

I took it down to the wash house (the rear case and Intermediate) and washed the snot out of it. Then I used silver Rustoleum 'Hammerite' on the entire unit.

The main case is new due to stress cracks.

 

[Dave_Nevada]

WORN input shaft sleeve wear findings

Min Max
OD Sleeve Roller Bearing
0.811 0.812 0.813
Variance along wear area of sleeve
0.807 0.806
Wear amount total distance from Sleeve
0.004 0.005
From Bearing
0.005 0.007

As you can see, that's a very large gap between the bearing pins and the surface on the sleeve.

It's just as I suspected, way the hell out of whack. In the machinery world, .005 & .007 total run-out is like the Grand Canyon in ratio.

I don't have a repaired input shaft with a sleeve on it, so I could not check that.

Bottom line: quit using needle bearings for the input shaft pilot.

 

[Dave_Nevada]

I love threads like this, but your colourful personality makes it an order of magnitude more enjoyable. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience Dave!

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All in good fun. I never forgot an axiom that I read long ago- knowledge that isn't passed along is no knowledge at all.

There are times when I am doing this stuff that I feel like Red Forman and Gunny Hartman rolled into one. I am an engineer (I can't say where), but I am surrounded by many talented individuals, and that in and of itself, can sometimes be maddening because they lack MILITARY discipline.

Oh yeah, they can code all day long and figure out hardware apparatus for some very complex stuff; but do you think something simple like washing your GD dishes in the sink would kill you scumbag???

I'm telling you, intelligence doesn't come from books, it comes from being considerate of others. A test score is total B.S.

My standard for intelligence is this: 'Can you work together to achieve a said goal and can you do it accurately and efficiently?'

I'm not putting down formal education, it truly has its place. I sure as hell don't want Frank the garbage man doing brain surgery on me.

But we all know education can come in many forms, from many sources. You don't need someone's stamp of approval to learn something.

I laughed when some dolt said 'College is where you learn to teach yourself.' Whuaaaa?

Really numb-nuts? Ever seen how 'educated' you can get when people are shooting at you? You didn't even try to go out with his Mother and he's trying to kill you! I'd say that Ol' Boy has a 'bad attitude' and a big ol' burr under his saddle.

Fact: Folks that restrict access to information are keeping others in everlasting ignorance, because they literally teach an ego based social status based on a 'gatekeeper mentality.' In other words, "Skippy, you aren't worthy to wear that graduation pin until I say so."

I'm a big believer in dudes like Martin Luther and why he pounded his 95 Thesis on the monastery door. Go ahead, look it up. It's a key pivotal point in all of modern history. His actions proved beyond a doubt- that ONE MAN can indeed make a significant difference in the way people live, primarily, HIM.

Nonetheless, a haughty attitude is crap, and is beaten out of you in Marine boot camp.

It makes you 'trainable'. hehehehe

You're all green, which means all of you pretty much suck.

Glad we clarified that Gunny!! ointlaugh:

 

[Dave_Nevada]

Min Max
OD Sleeve Roller Bearing
0.811 0.812 0.813
Variance along wear area of sleeve
0.807 0.806
Wear amount total distance from Sleeve
0.004 0.005
From Bearing
0.005 0.007

As you can see, that's a very large gap between the bearing pins and the surface on the sleeve.

It's just as I suspected, way the hell out of whack. In the machinery world, .005 & .007 total run-out is like the Grand Canyon in ratio.

I don't have a repaired input shaft with a sleeve on it, so I could not check that.

Bottom line: quit using needle bearings for the input shaft pilot.

I have noticed the same chewed up input shaft problems with many other manufacturers that run needle bearings. It seems to be a common problem across the board.

BTW- I have this input shaft mounted on my lathe. I think I'll turn the sleeve off to see how bad the surface is under it. These sleeves are pretty soft in comparison to the needle bearings, and I know darned well they distort under the torsional pressures applied to the input shaft. Just how much they distort is the question.

I'm not taking my measurements of the sleeve (in my case) as the gospel to conclude as to what is actually happening. But I will tell you this- when the un-scored portion measured at .811" and the contact surfaces varied in diameter .807 to .806, there's something seriously amiss.

The possibility of the sleeve being pressed down (distorted) by the new pin bearings is suspect. Along with the needles running out of lube, it is easy to see why the sleeve is a joke when it's installed with the provided needle bearing.

There's another scenario I'd like to monitor:

Running a sleeve with a bronze bearing. Does it distort the surface of the sleeve? If so, how much? Remember, we are dealing with 500 ft lbs torque from this engine. it's not hard to imagine the negative affect on an 'oblong' or 'out of round sleeve.

Anyway, if one of you has your ZF6 input shaft out of the truck and you have an analog or digital mic, could you share your measurements all along the sleeve? If it's not gouged, a total run-out (roundness) measurement would be great.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[ja_cain]

All in good fun. I never forgot an axiom that I read long ago- knowledge that isn't passed along is no knowledge at all.

There are times when I am doing this stuff that I feel like Red Forman and Gunny Hartman rolled into one. I am an engineer (I can't say where), but I am surrounded by many talented individuals, and that in and of itself, can sometimes be maddening because they lack MILITARY discipline.

Oh yeah, they can code all day long and figure out hardware apparatus for some very complex stuff; but do you think something simple like washing your GD dishes in the sink would kill you scumbag???

I'm telling you, intelligence doesn't come from books, it comes from being considerate of others. A test score is total B.S.

My standard for intelligence is this: 'Can you work together to achieve a said goal and can you do it accurately and efficiently?'

I'm not putting down formal education, it truly has its place. I sure as hell don't want Frank the garbage man doing brain surgery on me.

But we all know education can come in many forms, from many sources. You don't need someone's stamp of approval to learn something.

I laughed when some dolt said 'College is where you learn to teach yourself.' Whuaaaa?

Really numb-nuts? Ever seen how 'educated' you can get when people are shooting at you? You didn't even try to go out with his Mother and he's trying to kill you! I'd say that Ol' Boy has a 'bad attitude' and a big ol' burr under his saddle.

Fact: Folks that restrict access to information are keeping others in everlasting ignorance, because they literally teach an ego based social status based on a 'gatekeeper mentality.' In other words, "Skippy, you aren't worthy to wear that graduation pin until I say so."

I'm a big believer in dudes like Martin Luther and why he pounded his 95 Thesis on the monastery door. Go ahead, look it up. It's a key pivotal point in all of modern history. His actions proved beyond a doubt- that ONE MAN can indeed make a significant difference in the way people live, primarily, HIM.

Nonetheless, a haughty attitude is crap, and is beaten out of you in Marine boot camp.

It makes you 'trainable'. hehehehe

You're all green, which means all of you pretty much suck.

Glad we clarified that Gunny!! ointlaugh:

That's the gospel right there Dave. I don't know where I would be today if it wasn't for my experience in the Corps.

Are you a ME at your current job? I don't wan't to assume you went EE just because you were a 2841. Lol! If so, would you like to relocate to VA? I would love to work with a ME former Marine. Lol!

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[Dave_Nevada]

I'm worse. I'm a QA Engineer. Like I said, I can't say where I work because I would be hammered with questions about the technology behind it and I cannot reveal details about the stuff I work on. No I'm not the grandiose a-hole that says "I'd have to kill you if I told you", I don't work for the 'gubmint', or a sub of their BS either.

The things I see everyday have to do with coding, math, machinery, graphics, etc. That's all I say.

Virginia? Surely you jest Sir.

 

[Dave_Nevada]

Well, it's been two weeks of road trials now.

On the pedal tree mod I did with the heim joint and Oilite bearings- PERFECT.

Works as expected. No more funny sounds coming from under the dash too (oiled the hard plastic bushings on the return spring), pushes in to disengage the clutch perfectly, no binding. Would recommend it to anyone. Very smooth. Funny, out of all the stuff that was wrong on the trans, the noisy return spring is what the wife noticed the most. Pfft,.

On the up-pipes- no leaks. Thank you Riff-Raff. Working as designed.

Trans is shifting normally too. Now I know what 'normal' gear roll-over sounds like in these things.
Sounded like a hay baler before!! Sheesh!

The HD Val-Air clutch package is working as expected. No surprises. Thumbs up to Val-Air.

No issues with the sold bronze input shaft bearing. Hard shifts are one indicator of a lousy input shaft bearing. Nice and smooth. I obtained most of my rebuild parts from Allstate Gear in San Antonio, Tx.

All in all, I'm happy! Well worth the mods I did, and the trans rebuild.

Glad I did all of them.

 

[Jomax]

I think I’ll stick with an auto trans LOL, great thread Dave.

For your job, let me guess, you work in Area 51? Lol
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