6.4ltr with a 4R pros and cons please

Jhaddox · Nov 8, 2012

TrailerHauler said:
I'm not completely sure if this is the proper terminology but, why couldn't those of you wanting to run a 4r with a PCS put a manual "ECM" in the truck so that you can retain cruise control? It's probably more complicated than that, but just curious. A PCS and a 4r is a lot of fun to play with and not very difficult to learn, I've been very happy with mine.

This is what ill be trying soon

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Dzchey21 · Nov 8, 2012

Has something to do with the output speed sensor right?

tensixniner · Nov 8, 2012

You'll need a harness with the manual PCM. Your auto truck doesn't have a clutch pedal safety switch and won't start without it.

Dzchey21 · Nov 8, 2012

tensixniner said:
You'll need a harness with the manual PCM. Your auto truck doesn't have a clutch pedal safety switch and won't start without it.

There has to be a way to just ground or power that pin tho without it i would think.

tensixniner · Nov 8, 2012

Dzchey21 said:
There has to be a way to just ground or power that pin tho without it i would think.

Would be easy enough to just work the factory switch manually to start the truck.
Doubles as an anti-theft device.

Not sure if it will be an issue but manual transmission PCM won't cut power between shifts.

TrailerHauler · Nov 8, 2012

Dzchey21 said:
There has to be a way to just ground or power that pin tho without it i would think.

The PCS provides a "complete circuit" for park and neutral and an "open circuit" for all other gears. You have to choose where to wire it into your truck.

For example, in my case I went from a manual transmission to an auto. When my clutch petal was engaged it completed a circuit allowing the truck to start. So I took the un terminated wires in my PCS harness for the park and neutral safety switch and connected them to the wires for my clutch petal position switch. Which in turn told the truck to start when the transmission was in either park or neutral, because there was a complete circuit.

So going from a 5r to a PCSed 4r, you would simply do the same thing. Whether you switch to a manual ECM/ harness or not find the wires for the neutral safety switch in either harness and use the PCS harness complete the circuit like the factory transmission harness.

Dzchey21 · Nov 8, 2012

TrailerHauler said:
The PCS provides a "complete circuit" for park and neutral and an "open circuit" for all other gears. You have to choose where to wire it into your truck.

For example, in my case I went from a manual transmission to an auto. When my clutch petal was engaged it completed a circuit allowing the truck to start. So I took the un terminated wires in my PCS harness for the park and neutral safety switch and connected them to the wires for my clutch petal position switch. Which in turn told the truck to start when the transmission was in either park or neutral, because there was a complete circuit.

So going from a 5r to a PCSed 4r, you would simply do the same thing. Whether you switch to a manual ECM/ harness or not find the wires for the neutral safety switch in either harness and use the PCS harness complete the circuit like the factory transmission harness.

I understand that but I think he was referencing that the harness doesn't have the required wiring to the pcm

TrailerHauler · Nov 8, 2012

Dzchey21 said:
I understand that but I think he was referencing that the harness doesn't have the required wiring to the pcm

The posts above and below you threw me off. That's probably right though, one would have to take a look at an auto and manual pcm pinout to be sure. I can't imagine adding the couple pins to run a manual pcm would be that difficult.

tensixniner · Nov 9, 2012

Dzchey21 said:
I understand that but I think he was referencing that the harness doesn't have the required wiring to the pcm

That's correct.
Auto harness doesn't have clutch pedal safety switch wires.
PCM is going to look for these inputs but they don't exist.
There may be other things that are different, I'm not sure right now it's been a while since I've looked at this stuff.

Dzchey21 · Nov 9, 2012

TrailerHauler said:
The posts above and below you threw me off. That's probably right though, one would have to take a look at an auto and manual pcm pinout to be sure. I can't imagine adding the couple pins to run a manual pcm would be that difficult.

No not at all.

I was referencing that getting a harness wouldn't be mandatory just need a schematic to find what pins may need to be added or even moved in the harness to make it work. Swaping the main harness would be a ton of work

mike@haller's · Nov 9, 2012

an auto doesnt have a clutch switch but it still has a neutral safety wire that gets grounded when you put it in park or neutral. With the pcs you just take one of the outputs set it to ground, then make it 100% in park and neutral. Then hook it to the neutral safety wire from the trans.

bigrpowr · Nov 9, 2012

Nice name change *** stik. LOL

ingrahams · Nov 9, 2012

For a 1000rwhp street strip truck would the 4R100 be the best choice? i only want to spend the money once so i want something that is going to hold the power.

Super08Duty · Nov 9, 2012

At 1000hp nobody spends their money just once.

Jhaddox · Nov 9, 2012

ingrahams said:
For a 1000rwhp street strip truck would the 4R100 be the best choice? i only want to spend the money once so i want something that is going to hold the power.

At that level things are going to need to be rebuilt and gone through over time...as for which has taken a better beating...Craig could make about 3 passes at best before snapping a shaft or having to rebuild the 5r..His 4r can go rounds and not worry about it...he has snapped a few things with it with the compounds when the torque came on early

for the most part with his race truck the 4r has been far superior...but you will have to have any trans at that level refreshed from time to time

JDub · Nov 9, 2012

Wish I had my built John Wood 4R back so I could put it behind my Dmax. Throw this Allison in the garbage where it belongs.

ingrahams · Nov 9, 2012

I am aware of the freshening up, but i don't want to spend the money to build a 5R just to keep breaking parts where if I go with the 4R i will just have to have it gone through periodically.

jdgleason · Nov 9, 2012

Jhaddox said:
At that level things are going to need to be rebuilt and gone through over time...as for which has taken a better beating...Craig could make about 3 passes at best before snapping a shaft or having to rebuild the 5r..His 4r can go rounds and not worry about it...he has snapped a few things with it with the compounds when the torque came on early

for the most part with his race truck the 4r has been far superior...but you will have to have any trans at that level refreshed from time to time

The 4R has a couple smaller internal parts then the 5R's do, including the output shaft, and the forward planetary. The input shafts are interchangeable and the intermediates are very similar.

That being said, any shaft breakage is going to be a tuning deal. If anything, the 4R's biggest disadvantage is the shafts. The 5r's are a lot tougher to tune than a 4R because of the way they shift. So, long story short, the advantage of a 4R is the way it shifts and its simplicity, not bigger or better shafts. I don't buy that the 4R is stronger (Because it has no stronger parts) it is just a simpler transmission that isn't as difficult to tune.

I believe that the 5R tuning is far from being refined, but there are a lot of strides being made in that direction.

Pizza pig · Nov 9, 2012

jdgleason said:
The 4R has a couple smaller internal parts then the 5R's do, including the output shaft, and the forward planetary. The input shafts are interchangeable and the intermediates are very similar.

That being said, any shaft breakage is going to be a tuning deal. If anything, the 4R's biggest disadvantage is the shafts. The 5r's are a lot tougher to tune than a 4R because of the way they shift. So, long story short, the advantage of a 4R is the way it shifts and its simplicity, not bigger or better shafts. I don't buy that the 4R is stronger (Because it has no stronger parts) it is just a simpler transmission that isn't as difficult to tune.

I believe that the 5R tuning is far from being refined, but there are a lot of strides being made in that direction.

:clapping::clapping:

Jhaddox · Nov 9, 2012

jdgleason said:
The 4R has a couple smaller internal parts then the 5R's do, including the output shaft, and the forward planetary. The input shafts are interchangeable and the intermediates are very similar.

That being said, any shaft breakage is going to be a tuning deal. If anything, the 4R's biggest disadvantage is the shafts. The 5r's are a lot tougher to tune than a 4R because of the way they shift. So, long story short, the advantage of a 4R is the way it shifts and its simplicity, not bigger or better shafts. I don't buy that the 4R is stronger (Because it has no stronger parts) it is just a simpler transmission that isn't as difficult to tune.

I believe that the 5R tuning is far from being refined, but there are a lot of strides being made in that direction.

I just don't see the 5r surviving...all the time with the 6.0s and now the 6.4...with high Hp applications it is just not something currently feasable

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