Any good info on cams?

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I've told many customers, if they don't have flow numbers for their heads, they do not really know what cam to put in.

If your head quits flowing air at .380" total lift, and you put in a .500" gross lift cam..... Well, I could go on for days about a whole lot of things. Like the difference that duration makes in a boosted engine, or the exhaust valve timing.... Unfortunately 90% of the people don't know what they need and don't have the info to properly size one to their needs. Part of that falls on the customer for wanting to just put a cam in with no idea of the rest of their setup. The other is on the person selling something that they have no idea how it actually works.

On stock heads the power gain will be minimal for any cam and some cams will definitely loose power if used in combination with stock heads.

Your best bet is to get information on what you have first them call and talk to someone who knows what they are grinding/selling.

To be very clear, I am not dogging any cam manufacturer or company selling them that is competent. Because we use a certain brand, doesn't mean they are better etc... We have our own stuff ground for our own stuff as well. Nothing new. I've had cams custom ground for years and years.... Before we ever though of a 6.0 aftermarket cam. I am not going to tell you "this brand" cam is better or makes "this much power". I can however help you size something, if you take the time to have your info correct and know what you are going for. And so will others. It will just take a phone call to get there with anyone. But you will be a lot more likely to get something to fit your needs.




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[KCTurbos]

I've told many customers, if they don't have flow numbers for their heads, they do not really know what cam to put in.

If your head quits flowing air at .380" total lift, and you put in a .500" gross lift cam..... Well, I could go on for days about a whole lot of things. Like the difference that duration makes in a boosted engine, or the exhaust valve timing.... Unfortunately 90% of the people don't know what they need and don't have the info to properly size one to their needs. Part of that falls on the customer for wanting to just put a cam in with no idea of the rest of their setup. The other is on the person selling something that they have no idea how it actually works.

On stock heads the power gain will be minimal for any cam and some cams will definitely loose power if used in combination with stock heads.

Your best bet is to get information on what you have first them call and talk to someone who knows what they are grinding/selling.

To be very clear, I am not dogging any cam manufacturer or company selling them that is competent. Because we use a certain brand, doesn't mean they are better etc... We have our own stuff ground for our own stuff as well. Nothing new. I've had cams custom ground for years and years.... Before we ever though of a 6.0 aftermarket cam. I am not going to tell you "this brand" cam is better or makes "this much power". I can however help you size something, if you take the time to have your info correct and know what you are going for. And so will others. It will just take a phone call to get there with anyone. But you will be a lot more likely to get something to fit your needs.




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Thanks for the great info Morgan!

 

[Fast-6.0]

I guess it's my turn to post in this thread.

I think everyone posting has had some very valid points and I would like to cover some of that and give my info (spent way more time on this than I should have).

Well I am planning a race truck build and got lost in cam shopping... seems like only a year or two ago the only cams on the market were the colt cams. Now elite, rcd, and colt offer different cams.

Charlie, Elite Diesel was the first company to offer a cam for the 6.0L and we released it 9 years ago. We have had different levels of regrinds and billets ever since.

The only cam that we have done a TRUE before and after test was our Stage 1 regrind. This was 3-4 years ago that we did the test. Only the cam was changed. Power difference was minimal but we did see lower backpressure and improved spool time.

I'm not willing to give up my proprietary information or chris's just so someone can act like they know what they are doing. We have both worked hard on this.

Brenton, having done this also, I understand the time it takes to do this in a truck, it's stupid. I see why you would be wanting to keep that info to yourself.

Like ported intake manifolds. Out of how many companies doing them have taken the time to actually figure out what is going on in the intake manifold that prevents the so called flow issues with the manifold,also how many have done before and after of this to prove gains were to be had???? Hell If I recall I have never seen a flow comparison of ported and not ported intake has anyone else ??

We have indeed flow tested and dyno tested the difference. I did post on the forums when this was done and on our product pages. Do I expect you to know this? NO, but just because I didn't email you the results does not mean you are the FIRST or ONLY company doing testing. I think what you are doing is great, but stop pretending you are the only shop to test something.

To ask a third more money for a cam with no specs, no video, no graph, and one dyno, is kinda foolish....anyone remember the first edition Steed manifolds for the 6.0L?
Everyone who had them praised them....until one person questioned them, and actually tested them, and lost power.

I hear you Ivan. I also agree 100%. Let's see who tested the Steed's before and after. Oh yeah, it was Elite.

Pretty sure you can google any camshaft for a small block Chevy, Ford, dodge, whatever...and you will be able to see the cam specs.

In fact...look at all the cam specs that I posted from Elite, RCD, and Colt...are any of them the same? NOPE!
Did they all post there specs on the Internet for all to see? YEP!

Ivan, originally I did not want to post specs and most shops don't for the same reason Brenton doesn't want to post them. Eventually I came to the same thought process relating back to my SBC days, how can you buy a cam without any knowledge of the specs? So I started posting them. You are not wrong in wanting to see basic numbers.

On stock heads the power gain will be minimal for any cam and some cams will definitely loose power if used in combination with stock heads.

Your best bet is to get information on what you have first them call and talk to someone who knows what they are grinding/selling.

Said perfectly Morgan.

 

[strokin6L]

Thanks for posting your thoughts Tadd! Appreciate it!

 

[Straubtech]

Ok so is Chris Straub offering different cams for towing, or race only, or dual purpose?
Some people have spent the time to have everything balanced for higher rpm use... (wider power band)
Is he upping the rpm range at all?

You'll be able to have your cake and eat it too. I see the diesel world as being very lucky...CID and RPM range doesn't really change. These 2 factors along with a few other things decide when to open, how long, how far, and when to close.

So you will have a cam for stock heads, a cam for a ported head program, and then a custom stick ground for the guy that is "out of the box" ie different CID different RPM.

For the guy that wants to move a Big Tex during the week....drag race on Wednesday night test and tune and go to the fair and pull in the stock diesel class he will have a Multi-Truck with one of my cams. All he has to do is change tune based on what he is doing. Cam events and lobe area are purely based on CID and RPM.

For the guy that wants a dedicated puller or drag truck...then that COMBINATION has to be built and that cam is 1 off.

 

[Straubtech]

Cams are not one size fits all.

In the gas world this is the Gospel. In the Diesel world it a different story. A SBC can be 283CID to 454 CID. Then you can add 100 different cylinder heads. In the diesel world the choices are limited. If a 6.0L customer wants to keep the stock heads and OEM rpm range then 1 cam is needed to haul, pull, or drag. The cam has no idea if if is seeing 40# or 100#... all it knows is base on demand it needs to open and close valves over a period of time.

 

[Straubtech]

That 200hp claim tho.

HP is calculation. To make HP you have to have RPM. If you run out of charger and you run out of fuel....well you gotta have more of both to make power.

 

[Straubtech]

The specs I posted are the RCD new cam specs.

The thing is...Chris says he can do more with less, but I think all he is doing is taking away the duration from the intake valves opening BTDC.

Say you have a cam that says it has 210* of intake duration...it might:
Start to open the intake valve 15* before top dead center.
Stays open for the intake stroke, 180*
Is closed at 15* after bottom dead center.
15 + 180 + 15= 210* of duration.

If Chris' cam starts to open the intake valves at 0*, or top dead center...and the lift on his cam has say .010" more lift...his is doing more with less.

I also think that is why he is only making one cam for this, and one for that. (Ported/unported)
The rpm range will only be in the stock rpm range...up to 34-3800rpm.

If you wanted more rpm...then you need a different camshaft.

My stall is 2400....do I want to only rev to 4000 rpm??? Nope.
I want a wider power band then 1600 rpm.

It's like he is choosing to pick the low hanging fruit, by making a couple of camshafts that will be more efficient at low rpm, but lose top end power.

But...90% of diesel truck owners use their trucks for hauling...not racing, or high performance.

I could be way out in left field...so don't take any of this too serious...I'm just trying to get as much information about different cams as possible.

Maybe Chris will jump in, and clear it up for everyone...including me.

On a boosted application it makes no sense to open the intake valve before it is at TDC. IF you do you have mechanical force, piston coming up, VS, boost pressure trying to keep in down in hole.

 

[Straubtech]

We're left to speculate because he says big things but doesn't have the data.. As soon as he puts the data out there all the speculation will end and we can make an educated decision.

I'll be the first to admit I am a nobody in this diesel world. I have flown under the radar for many years in the gas world also. I really prefer it. I was asked about 2.5 years ago to look into this stuff. Based on the same math I have used for years and some sound advice from others I am moving forward and those that want to learn I will teach...those that don't...well that is what makes us individuals.

 

[Straubtech]

I am not a sales... and I am not biased... but I wanted to share a little more info on the straub cams

If anyone is curious... just call up Chris and he will answer any questions that you have. He spent about 30min on the phone with me answering any and all questions that I had.

Extended power you are 100% correct... his main customer is set to be the 90% of guys who are just looking for a good cam for a "stockish" truck. Probably a 500-600hp truck that will not be revving higher than 4000rpms. BUT>>> he said he can and will make a custom cam for anyone that wants one. He will custom grind to your specific needs.


Don't quote me... but I believe the graph was from a 6.4 running 100% nozzles, twin pumps, and 63/75 turbos, stock heads/bottom end. I think it gained around 140tq and 60hp with just a cam swap. The graph was cut short because the rail pressure started to surge.



Although Chris might not have "all the data"... but he has provided WAY more than any other company out there. It amazes me that there are ZERO before/after dynos for colt cams which have been out for MANY MANY years.

Months ago I sent emails out to companies expressing my williness to work with them on all 3 Camps. I got very little response...really non. I got my Duramax testing back and then I knew I was on the right road. Cummins stuff same result....better manners....more boost....no numbers yet over the stage 2 cam in that deal. Working with TS Innovations now on 5.9 stuff. Powerstroke same deal except we have run out of air and fuel and I am told this has not happened before so we have a VERY happy PowerStroke.

 

[Straubtech]

.Should post the Straub cam results in the 6.4L threads, not the 6.0L threads...it's misleading.

Southern KY Diesel, Zeb will have 6.0 results along with a couple more shops. I have been in contact with some 7.3 guys and will have a new core for the 7.3 in a few months.

 

[Straubtech]

Emailed Geoff again.
His cams in the stage 3 & 4 are not going to be ready till sometime in March now.

Anyone know who is cutting River City's cams now?

Is Chris Straub offering deals on his introductory cams?

There is a huge difference in price for something that is made from the same material...exchange rate is another thing that's killing fellow Canadians right now...30%
So for a set of lifts and a cam it's what? $1500.00US?
...almost $2000.00 Canadian....Booo!

My core is engineered from scratch. The OEM core can not be ground on such a wide LSA. To do so is to go through the heat treat, reduce the base circle. Now you need to re heat treat the core and the customer will need custom pushrod lengths.

My stuff will never need valve reliefs. Since the intake valve is following the piston down one will not have to have reliefs put in the pistons saving labor and machine time.

 

[Straubtech]

WOW! This thread did not go the way I was hoping. I am hoping we can get back on track a little bit and don't want to start anything. BUT i wanted to point out a few things.

I notice a lot of negativity towards straub cams and side action diesel... I agree with many of the points you are making and I appreciate your input/data, but I wanted to run a few things by you. KEEP IN MIND I AM NOT SELLING ANYTHING, just doing research.

If you really are interested in the specs for the straub cams then give him a call. I am not sure if they have decided anything 100% but he was MORE THAN WILLING to share any and all info. Most of the questions that you are asking were answered when I talked to him over the phone but I did not write anything down.

Also... You seem to be stuck a lot of how straub has not provided any data/results... in all my searching they are the FIRST to provide ANY sort of before/after information. All the rest simply added a cam during a big build and said how much they like the cam.



Side action diesel does not have the "rights" to straub cams... BUT... Chris/straub said that he would be willing to make custom grinds for anyone... so it is quite possible for side action diesel to make their own exclusive cam and sell it as their own. I am not saying thats what they are doing but it was asked why they keep calling them "their cams"... so maybe they have an exclusive design

On that same note the first cam straub is planning to release are for "stockish" trucks looking to keep the same power band. He told me that he would custom grind a cam for ANY application so if you want to move the power band up in the rpms then that is definitely possible.


6.0 and 6.4 trucks are very different, but they share the same cam, similar displacement, similar heads, similar intake, etc... I take it with a grain of salt but I appreciate the info that side action has presented.



Anybody else have any actual info on cams? Maybe at what point one should jump from a stage 2 to stage 3? If there is any loss in bottom end?
:ford:

I am an open book to anyone that wants to call. I will say this. Anyone that has been in the cam core business understands that is machine time that you pay for. Since this core is new, I have be allotted a given amount of machine time so availability for this first year will be limited. We are at 20 powerstrokes a month with the future at 100 per month. Those that have gotten on board and or placed blanket orders will have cams in stock. Also remember... I do over 500 custom 1 off gas cams a year along with same program for Cummins and Duramax.

 

[Straubtech]

I've told many customers, if they don't have flow numbers for their heads, they do not really know what cam to put in.

If your head quits flowing air at .380" total lift, and you put in a .500" gross lift cam..... Well, I could go on for days about a whole lot of things. Like the difference that duration makes in a boosted engine, or the exhaust valve timing.... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like the way you think.

History of cams...I love this stuff...
Advertised duration....Anyone know the history of why we call it this? The seat duration was the number that was used to Advertise the camshaft in the old performance catalogs. Now this was an issue since Crane was at .004 and Isky and Erson were at .006". Crane always had the bigger number. So around the late 50's early 60's at the Nationals in Indy the 3 of them sat down and talked about this. They wanted a tappet height number to compare cams at. .050" was selected.

So as Morgan has pointed out....050" numbers mean NOTHING. It is a reference point used for MARKETING. If you want the meat of a camshaft you need the events and lobe area.

 

[Straubtech]

Now some food for thought...if you go quicker down the track in takes less time. If your able to fill the CID quicker in the same rpm range then it takes less time. Duration is time.

If the CID and RPM don't change and you port the heads and increase the airflow then the duration will be shorter... smaller cam.

 

[Straubtech]

How do we drive the turbo? Exhaust pulse. When does the pulse have it's highest velocity? Any gun guys out there?

 

[Vader's Fury]

For a gun, the highest velocity is at the muzzle.

So would that be at the end of the up-pipe? Or would it be when it exits the combustion chamber into the manifold?

 

[Straubtech]

For a gun, the highest velocity is at the muzzle.

So would that be at the end of the up-pipe? Or would it be when it exits the combustion chamber into the manifold?

How about when you crack that exhaust valve? Think about your favorite beverage?

 

[sideactiondiesel]

opcorn:

 

[Extended Power]

Pm sent to you Chris.