B Codes, Not a Noob post

[96F350KID]

Liquid doesn't compress at all, never, nada, never ever ever. That was one of the first things I learned in school. Liquid is pressurized to do work. If it compressed then you could never build hydraulic pressure to do work. TARMs theory has been depicted so many times and the end result is the same. IF the pumps supplied oil directly to each injector via a small tube only and their was no res or oil rail then the theory would be correct. But the fact is there is a large tube in each head that holds the pressurized oil to be used. Another note about the pressure drop is the ICP sensor inlet hole is about the same diameter as the oil feed holes. Thus without doing the math, theoretically whatever the ICP sensor sees the injectors should see as well. It doesn't matter if I have a 1" diameter hole or a 100" diameter hole and the PSI is the same the PSI will remain the same. The only thing that changes is the FORCE behind the diameter which is your pressure ratio. 1:1 or 1:100. I have a B code on my desk with a 200% nozzle that will make 365ccs with only 2400psi ICP and at 3.5MS which is close to the same as a Hybrid at a higher ICP pressure. I have yet to get it on a bench that will hold 3400psi which by the design will push the intensifier piston down quicker once the poppet opens.

 

[Big Bore]

I'm curious how the oil rails act as a accumulator. I thought liquid didn't normally compress well or is there something i'm not understanding?

You are correct, fluids tend not to compress, which is why they work so well in a pressurized hydraulic system. Accumulators act as a reservoir for pressurized fluid. The larger the volume of accumulated pressurized fluid, the smaller the percentage of oil flowed by the injector will be in relation, and therefore create a smaller drop in pressure. Obviously at some point it will reach equilibrium with the pump output.

 

[superpsd]

But they do compress. Fill a one gallon high pressure tank with hydraulic oil then use a hydraulic pump to pump more oil in thru a one way check valve. Now slowly relive that oil into a container and walla you need a larger container than one gallon. Kind of depends on what your definition of compression is. If I shove 500 gallons of oil into tank smaller than 500 gallons I could say I compressed the volume into a smaller tank. Either way it'd off topic. Psi is Psi in the rails an accumulator may help if your seeing pressure drop but also has the downfall of more volume to fill which affects fill time even though we're talking milliseconds here.

 

[MeTo]

"But they do compress", that is some classic interweb knowledge right there. LOL

Derail warning!!!
5th grade science needs to be revisited.

 

[superpsd]

The word compression and decompression do come up in the real world of hydraulics. I've worked on hydraulic systems for over 10 years now. I use to repair, diagnose and maintain hydraulic test benches that were capable of 10,000 psi with data logging particle counters. I've rebuilt variable vane, axial piston, and gear pumps. Some bigger than your head that have 4" discharge ports to feed broaching machines and 250 Ton presses etc etc. Not to mention complex CNC machinery and hydraulic servo systems. Also modification of hydraulic systems. Yeah I need to go back to 5th grade.

 

[mandkole]

from 'hydraulics 101' class at work.. you can 'compress' the oil to gain an additional ~.4% of volume for every 1000 psi pressure increase within a given vessel. For something as small of volume as the rails its a pretty small gain in fluid capacity.

 

[TyCorr]

The word compression and decompression do come up in the real world of hydraulics. I've worked on hydraulic systems for over 10 years now. I use to repair, diagnose and maintain hydraulic test benches that were capable of 10,000 psi with data logging particle counters. I've rebuilt variable vane, axial piston, and gear pumps. Some bigger than your head that have 4" discharge ports to feed broaching machines and 250 Ton presses etc etc. Not to mention complex CNC machinery and hydraulic servo systems. Also modification of hydraulic systems. Yeah I need to go back to 5th grade.

Im slowly learning to ignore people like that.

I used to design p&id's, analyze piping systems for supports and movements, size cooling water systems fir HRSGs and a million other power production facets but ive had people tell me i don't understand things like metal exoanding with heat. "Yea, ok dipchit".

 

[superpsd]

Eh it don't matter. It's all off the topic anyways. Since this was a B code injector thread I will throw what little I do know out there. First off BA BB BC code injectors are basically an AC code injector with different nozzles and VOP @ 3700. In fact all of the B codes are 3700psi VOP. BE codes are basically an AD injector. BD are the only single shot injector with the larger 7.1mm P&B 250cc stock. BI BJ BN codes are all split shot injectors with 7.1mm P&B. They have a taller barrel and longer nozzle cone. The Intensifier piston is also shorter on the splits. Tim @ PIS tested a BI code on the bench and it took like a full 6MS to dump 275cc thru a DT466 nozzle.

Picture of a BD Code P&B next to a BI code P&B

 

[TyCorr]

I used to have a link saved that explained all the a and b code variants but i kinda lost track of it.

I think its pretty cool you worked up a set of good, useable b codes and are using an atypical setup to get on.

 

[C'roy78stroker]

I'm beginning to see the several combinations of factory components that could be ran together it would just be a pain to acquire the various internal parts

 

[Hotrodtractor]

I thought to prevent the float of the poppets at higher ICP we needed a stronger poppet spring and also needed a stronger solenoid to overcome the increase pressure and allow to work quicker. I could be confusing things though as I recalling it from a conversation and few posts from years ago. I thought about the time you had posted the solenoid pics. I thought this was the cause of the poppet flutter.

You most certainly need to increase spring strength to decrease poppet float at higher ICP. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need a stronger solenoid to operate it. On the initial testing we simply cranked up the base ICP to a point where it would fire. In much the same way that higher ICP causes poppet float, it can also be used to help assist the solenoid. With sufficiently short PW you can actually have quite a bit of control.

Going from memory I think the base ICP was jumped up to 1000-1100psi and was able to have idle quantities of fuel.

A better solenoid simply is a way to increase the control resolution to improve control. Necessary for say a driver, but not a requirement for performance.

 

[TARM]

Ok that fills in much of what I was missing. Without my own flowbench or local access to one I have been at a serious handicap. Best I have is a fair number of full broken down injectors so I can see how the parts work etc..

I was always under the assumption that the spring and solenoid were balances which I guess they are when you consider resolution. That was were I was in error in terms of max using ICP to help overcome the spring, something a flow bench would have shown me.

I am only taking a SWAG here but it would seem to me that the idle and low load situations a 200% nozzle would give better resolution control with a higher poppet spring rate than say going to a 400% as with need for a higher base ICP for those conditions you need to limit fuel with PW once you at that threshold. Still not something idle for the street as I would think it makes the injector to senstive (on/off) for smooth cruising etc.

The solenoid explanation also helps me understand the wide performance band/range you state for your injector design/modifications.

When you designed the stronger solenoid; I assume by adding more coil segements in parallel which increases field strength?

How much taller did the solenoid come out to reach the target strength you were after?

What was the projected max ICP target the combo of poppet spring and solenoid allowed you to successfully run (on the flow bench for right now)?

I recall you mentioning blowing up Nates flow bench a while back was it by chance testing the limits of the above? :shocked:

 

[Hotrodtractor]

Ok that fills in much of what I was missing. Without my own flowbench or local access to one I have been at a serious handicap. Best I have is a fair number of full broken down injectors so I can see how the parts work etc..

I was always under the assumption that the spring and solenoid were balances which I guess they are when you consider resolution. That was were I was in error in terms of max using ICP to help overcome the spring, something a flow bench would have shown me.

I am only taking a SWAG here but it would seem to me that the idle and low load situations a 200% nozzle would give better resolution control with a higher poppet spring rate than say going to a 400% as with need for a higher base ICP for those conditions you need to limit fuel with PW once you at that threshold. Still not something idle for the street as I would think it makes the injector to senstive (on/off) for smooth cruising etc.

The solenoid explanation also helps me understand the wide performance band/range you state for your injector design/modifications.

When you designed the stronger solenoid; I assume by adding more coil segements in parallel which increases field strength?

How much taller did the solenoid come out to reach the target strength you were after?

What was the projected max ICP target the combo of poppet spring and solenoid allowed you to successfully run (on the flow bench for right now)?

I recall you mentioning blowing up Nates flow bench a while back was it by chance testing the limits of the above? :shocked:

Without getting all into the technical details of electromagnet design - yes - I have more wraps with larger wire utilizing a balance of increased wire (less resistance) and longer wire (more wraps, and more resistance) to come out with a design that is very close to factory resistance (and power consumption) while increasing Gaussian field strength by a factor of about 4. I increased the number of lamination in the core to decrease the effects of creating and dissipating a magnetic field at high speed - it remains to be tested if I did enough lamination to mitigate the effects enough to make them useful.

Off the top of my head they are roughly double in height counting the new brass connection studs to attach the wire harness to.

How much ICP? All of it. The springs I have should be good to 5kpsi. They haven't been tested there yet as the benches that I have access to aren't capable of that. If that is not enough I can whip up another spring design in a couple of hours and have them custom wound to whatever is needed. NBD. The real issue will start to become oil temps at higher ICP pressures......

Yes..... we melted down Nate's bench running the max pressure his bench could do. He had a plastic fitting in the return line to his oil tank. Oil temp exceeded the melting temp of the plastic on the second or third run and made quite the mess.... also killed testing that day as we needed a replacement metal fitting. LOL

 

[96F350KID]

For the sake of this thread can we leave out the street manner crap please? We're talking about maximum ICP, Fuel and injector components for MAX HP. You want good street manners go buy a set of 250/100s.

 

[96F350KID]

Without getting all into the technical details of electromagnet design - yes - I have more wraps with larger wire utilizing a balance of increased wire (less resistance) and longer wire (more wraps, and more resistance) to come out with a design that is very close to factory resistance (and power consumption) while increasing Gaussian field strength by a factor of about 4. I increased the number of lamination in the core to decrease the effects of creating and dissipating a magnetic field at high speed - it remains to be tested if I did enough lamination to mitigate the effects enough to make them useful.

Off the top of my head they are roughly double in height counting the new brass connection studs to attach the wire harness to.

How much ICP? All of it. The springs I have should be good to 5kpsi. They haven't been tested there yet as the benches that I have access to aren't capable of that. If that is not enough I can whip up another spring design in a couple of hours and have them custom wound to whatever is needed. NBD. The real issue will start to become oil temps at higher ICP pressures......

Yes..... we melted down Nate's bench running the max pressure his bench could do. He had a plastic fitting in the return line to his oil tank. Oil temp exceeded the melting temp of the plastic on the second or third run and made quite the mess.... also killed testing that day as we needed a replacement metal fitting. LOL

HRT,

But all of your work on those injectors what Horsepower did they ever produce?

 

[Hotrodtractor]

HRT,

But all of your work on those injectors what Horsepower did they ever produce?

0Hp. I haven't installed these sticks into anything. Many have asked. None have been granted components.

That doesn't mean that all of the work has been for naught. Many things have found there way into the injectors of mere mortals because of the work conducted in conjunction with the shops I was working with at the time.

I also find it a little ironic that you want no discussion other than MAX HP. Some day you might learn that control resolution is the difference between all out ponies and wished away ponies. Its OK though. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I gave up on that a LONG time ago on these forums. Believe what you will - that is your right.

 

[TyCorr]

0Hp. I haven't installed these sticks into anything. Many have asked. None have been granted components.

That doesn't mean that all of the work has been for naught. Many things have found there way into the injectors of mere mortals because of the work conducted in conjunction with the shops I was working with at the time.

I also find it a little ironic that you want no discussion other than MAX HP. Some day you might learn that control resolution is the difference between all out ponies and wished away ponies. Its OK though. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I gave up on that a LONG time ago on these forums. Believe what you will - that is your right.

I like this post. Sums up the forum versus real life.

I can understand making compromises to achieve a balance on a truck that does a bunch of things, but as you said control is the key. Without it, there is nothing.

 

[TARM]

HRT,

Thanks for the more detail. I actually was wondering about each of those areas as I was thinking what issues would arise.

The one I had not considered which is rather shallow of me as its a basic result of running up those flow rates and pressures was HEAT. While I understood this I had never considered it in this application as a possible limitation.

A secondary oil cooler could be added to possibly help that but not sure about how effective it would be.

IMO 4.5K PSI would have been my general target range for max ICP.

When I first started thinking about more powerful solenoid one of my first thoughts was to remove the electromagent from two and connect them in parallel but once I started working it out I saw the issues I would run into. Too bad, as if it had worked, it would have been stupid easy. You could have even mill out polymer block to create the enclosure with some bushings for the bolts which could be DIY level.

Assume you have the billet 9mm nozzle heads. What is the estimated flow rate you chose for the nozzles i.e %

Any major mods to the fuel supply side ?