manual or auto

[Charles]

Maybe you don't know how to drive your zf-6 you seem to be the only one with any trouble out of them.

Maybe I don't. Here I thought you just put it in OD and it was supposed to stay there for a few hours without giving up.

It's not like I'm shifting the pos. Just put it in gear and commence the meltdown procedure by simply twisting on the input shaft for a few hours and poof.... another ***ed trans.

It's like magic. Oh wait, no it's not, it's like the trans is only rated for 650ft/lbs at the crank, and putting more than that through it continuously exceeds it's ability to shed heat and stay alive.

 

[JoeDaddy]

Here's a little story I remember from years ago. When I was a kid I was in AWE of Ronnie Sox. He was the driver for the famed Sox & Martin hemi drag racing team. If you are at all a fan of drag racing, he's up there with likes of Don Garlits, John Force, Tommy Ivo, Warren Johnson and so on. We'd say "I wish I could jam gears like Ronnie Sox!". His legend has almost a mythical tone, he's known as the King of the 4 speed. Here's the story.

RONNIE SOX, was my idol... Although the man was short is stature he was a GIANT among the LEGENDS. Back when I ran the NMCA, I hired Ronnie Sox to match race against the fabeled CHRISTINE, 58 Plymouth A/FX Car. Ronnie was driving his 64 A/FX Comet. Ronnie won all 3 match races down the 1/4.

I remember giving Ronnie the Suite at the Hotel Headquarters I paid like $250.00/night back in 1990 for it. Ronnie could not believe that someone would do that for him. I told him that he was the most inspiring person to me in my life, from the world of Drag Racing.

In 1993 I got Ronnie to race Lou Cervon's VIPER at the Mopar Nationals in Indy, after Ronnie broke his 68 HEMI CUDA. This was the first year that the Viper was available to the public. I was offered a ride in a Viper by Mason Dixon who was a Radio DJ from FL. I was all excited!! But before I got my ride from Mason I ran into Lou and told him that Mason was going to give me a ride and Lou said, "Hell Chuck, I will let you race my Viper not just go for a ride." I was like OMG, really ??

Well before I was going to make my pass down the 1/4 mile I wanted to practice driving the Viper on the street (did not want to embarasse myself or the car). Lou told his son to ride along with me and away we went. NOW before I go to far I should let you know that I was one of the THREE Announcers for the Mopar Nationals which was owned by Jim Belinda. Anyways we go for our ride and come back, park and I go back to the tower. About 10 minutes later is when Ronnie broke the CUDA and this little light came on in my head, "Chuck Green does NOT need to race this VIPER down the 1/4 mile, RONNIE SOX has to do it.

So I paged Lou Cervone to the tower and pitched my idea at him. Lou was like a kid in a candy store. Are you sure Ronnie would that for me asked Lou? I said there is only one way to find out, so I paged Ronnie Sox to the tower and laid my idea out to him. He said that he would love to do so but he wanted to test drive the car on the street (sound familiar ??). So off went Ronnie and Lou's son for practice. When they came back Lou's son was as white as a ghost.

Well one of the other announcer's (Bryan) and myself plugged what was going to happen about Ronnie racing the Viper. Every Magazine Photographer at the track was there snapping pictures and taking notes to get this into print. Needless to say that Ronnie went faster in his one and only pass down the quarter mile than Lou or his son had ever gone.

My IDOL, Ronnie Sox, I will miss you.
Chuck Green


As I recall there was more to the story. Later I was told by a sponsor that the testing guys at Chrysler had gone like 13.??
Ronnie was in the low 12's. At that time and maybe even now it was the quickest anyone had gone in a dead stock viper of that year.

What does this have to do with the discussion? Just one thing.
There is NO King of the Automatics.

 

[Charles]

Ridiculous accusation and reasoning. If your 4r is still together then you must not tow hard or use your truck either in that case

Since I make the exact same run over and over and over and over, it's very obvious that the little ZF can't handle the heat. I melted my first one in my 250 at a dyno verified 305rwhp with a steady-state boost of ~24lbs. I melted my second in the 550 at about the same power and about the same boost. The 550 made two runs before it melted. It was in OD with 4.88 gears whereas my 250 was in direct with 3.73's, both at about the same ground speed (70 to 75). I don't know if the 550 trans lasted longer because of it being in OD or if that didn't matter, don't care. Neither would remain in gear with any level of success. You could keep driving, as long as you didn't mind shoving the shifter as hard as you could into gear under power and sometimes still have it go BAAAAAM, and jump out of gear under load. Since that's not my idea of acceptable I moved on to another trans in each case. My truck got another ZF, which I melted again, and then a 4R, and the 550 got another ZF with an added cooler inline with the OEM radiator unit.... maybe that will help...

Meanwhile, my 250 has since made that run with the 4R at a steady-state boost of about 45lbs!!! In a program dyno verified at 635rwhp, and the fluid looked exactly the same when I got home. It can shed the heat. And in that case... it was handling much, much more power. I had 4 more bales on the trailer and was running 75 the whole time, even cresting the hills because I had so much power reserve and two stage water injection keeping the engine happy and cool.

The 4R gave not a single ***.

Pretty sure they were mostly rated higher for the manual trans trucks, and some years were the same as the autos. And they didnt stop putting ZF's in truck due to your stated lack of durability. It was more along the lines of customers not ordering them as much therefore not worth it to make the expense of creating that option for trucks any longer

Explain how Ford was going to put a ZF 650 rated at 650ft/lbs in a truck with an engine rated at 800ft/lbs and still have a warranty from ZF?

Ever wonder why the last trucks to receive the ZF were making exactly 650ft/lbs? It's because they couldn't dial them up any more than that without killing the pos trans. Sure they would hold for short bursts, but Ford has to warrant the truck for it's intended purpose, TOWING AT RATED POWER. If you took a bone stock 6.7 at 400hp and went out and started dragging trailers around at full power you would end a pos ZF6, and ZF would have denied the warranty, leaving ford to foot the bill.

That is why there is no more ZF6. The engine's left it behind.

Exactly. They are being less and less preferred and not necessarily because they are worse. All the lighter duty trucks get ordered with the autos because they deliver around town and do a LOT of stop and go. Except many concrete trucks are still being ordered with the eaton fuller manuals just like the heavier spec tractors becuase they have more weight to handle, less in-town driving, and less stop and go such as garbage, moving, container trucks.

The pinnacle of concrete delivery are the oshkosh trucks. Allisons in 100% of them. They would run clean through a pos rear discharge with an eaton trans while carrying 10 yrds of concrete and never know it.

^^^thats seriously the reason eh? Price may be a factor here but "complexity that may confuse some people too much?" I thought autos were easier, at least it seems thats one thing you have been trying to explain to everyone in this thread

Believe it or not, dumb asses not being able to easily work on something is a big time barrier to a lot of things. I'm not talking about confusing the people driving it, I'm talking about the people working on it. When your mechanic tells you he can't work on an auto, but he can swap a dry clutch all day in front of a manual, that leads to a lot of people being scared of buying a truck with an auto.

You have an answer for everything dont ya? Pretty sure TooSlow was just stating his experience with the ZF's and stating that he sees one exception in this thread being YOU. Not that he's poking at you.

I'm doing my best to supply real info, as opposed to feel-good bs.

 

[Buffalo444]

So Charles, gotta ask... how long will a stock or mostly stock (shift kit/vb and tc) last with a pcs???

sent from the passenger seats of the goose.

bump

 

[Charles]

bump

I don't understand the question. The guy standing right next to me has over 500,000 miles on his 4R100 without any of that, so depending on power output, how long something will last can vary wildly.

 

[Buffalo444]

I don't understand the question. The guy standing right next to me has over 500,000 miles on his 4R100 without any of that, so depending on power output, how long something will last can vary wildly.

Say behind a truck like your 550, putting 300 hp down continuous while towing, but say at half the weight, maybe 20k gross?

 

[Charles]

Say behind a truck like your 550, putting 300 hp down continuous while towing, but say at half the weight, maybe 20k gross?

If you lifted on each shift and got on the power after it was locked in with a V-10 cooler or better I don't see why it wouldn't last forever. It wouldn't run hot, and the clutches wouldn't see any serious wear.

Now if you wanted to stand on the floor board through the shifts fully loaded then you'd be going through frictions in short order. Course you can't make a full power shift with a ZF6 even one time, so it's a moot point.

Shift it just like you would a ZF and it should last indefinitely. There's not enough power to break hard parts unless you want to start doing neutral drops fully loaded or something, and as I said, if you allow the clutches to lock in before stabbing down on the pedal everything will be good to go.

Will a bone stock 4R not hold 300rwhp just fine with the gear locked in and the TCC active? I'm sure it would just fine, all day.

Driving as I suggest above, I don't see a bone stock 4R giving one damn about any load you can hook to if the engine is only making 300. It doesn't matter if it's 30,000 or 60,000lbs as long as the trans can hold the power steady-state and you don't command a shift while under power.

 

[Buffalo444]

So basically drive it like you would with a tc lockup switch or as you would a manual and it should be fine.... interesting...

 

[Binder man]

Originally Posted by stroker2

Ridiculous accusation and reasoning. If your 4r is still together then you must not tow hard or use your truck either in that case

you obviously have never met charles... While I do enjoy shifting gears. What he is stating is the truth. These transmissions are rated for 650 ft. lbs of CONTINUOUS torque. Most of you guys will NEVER put 650 ft. lbs. of continuous torque through one. Imagine going up a 7-10% grade with 35K gross, now say your truck is 300 HP TO THE WHEELS and you are holding it to the floor just to maintain 60MPH in your 300HP tune, and do this for a few hours. A ZF cannot handle that, but 99.9% of you guys will never do that.

Now say that you do and you don't want to hurt it, find a way to make the ZF cool itself. You would need a external oil supply because the case cannot hold enough along with a few pumps and multiple coolers. But not to much of a pump or you wont get the full cooling effect of the oil, it will pass through the tranny to fast and not absorb any heat.

On the same lines as this I know a guy that ran a spicer twin stick in a 84 KW 3408 making 850+HP back in the day. With a individual cooler for both trannies and a individual gauge for both trannies. Going up grade he would have to take one out of O/D and shift the other into O/D while the other cooled off and go back and forth to keep from melting a Spicer tranny down. Call him stupid, but that company ran the fastest trucks on the road at those times, and he never melted down another spicer.

 

[89 Stroker]

prefer auto, manual is only when its race time in the dirt

 

[02BigD]

In all the years I've been around powerstroke forums, never ever seen one persone who went from a zf5 or 6 to an auto, wish they hadn't done it. Wether swapping in the same truck, or switching trucks. I am in that boat as well, so much better with the 4r.

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Maybe I don't. Here I thought you just put it in OD and it was supposed to stay there for a few hours without giving up.

It's not like I'm shifting the pos. Just put it in gear and commence the meltdown procedure by simply twisting on the input shaft for a few hours and poof.... another ***ed trans.

It's like magic. Oh wait, no it's not, it's like the trans is only rated for 650ft/lbs at the crank, and putting more than that through it continuously exceeds it's ability to shed heat and stay alive.

Well I have yet to melt a Zf 7 down...
My dad has put 400,000 probaly on zf6 towing everyday and never melted it down and a 30' gooseneck 873 bobcat and 8 pallets of 1500-2000 lbs sod must not be much weight behind a 1 ton in your eyes. I personally know of more 4r being replaced on stock or just chipped trucks then a zf-6 but I shift gears for a living so what do I know

 

[7.3 Cowboy]

Originally Posted by stroker2

you obviously have never met charles... While I do enjoy shifting gears. What he is stating is the truth. These transmissions are rated for 650 ft. lbs of CONTINUOUS torque. Most of you guys will NEVER put 650 ft. lbs. of continuous torque through one. Imagine going up a 7-10% grade with 35K gross, now say your truck is 300 HP TO THE WHEELS and you are holding it to the floor just to maintain 60MPH in your 300HP tune, and do this for a few hours. A ZF cannot handle that, but 99.9% of you guys will never do that.

Why would any person not asking for failure tow on a 300 hp tune? My zf 6 has oil cooler on it

 

[Charles]

Well I have yet to melt a Zf 7 down...
My dad has put 400,000 probaly on zf6 towing everyday and never melted it down and a 30' gooseneck 873 bobcat and 8 pallets of 1500-2000 lbs sod must not be much weight behind a 1 ton in your eyes. I personally know of more 4r being replaced on stock or just chipped trucks then a zf-6 but I shift gears for a living so what do I know

You are not putting down much continuous power DUMB.... ASS.....


You can hook a truck to a 100,000lb load if you want, and if you drove 1mph nothing would EVER get hot...

OR.....

Take a truck making 400rwhp and with it COMPLETELY EMPTY, go lay it to the floor and start making laps around Talladega and you will melt down the trans, u-joints and rear carrier bearings if you don't get off the power soon enough.


The load alone means NOTHING!!! It is the combination of weight, speed and terrain that determines the stress to the trans. Or.... these variables are all wrapped up in one neat little value... POWER. In my experience, the truck needs to be steady-state at ~300rwhp to push the ZF beyond it's happy spot.

99% of all 7.3's don't EVER even MAKE 300rwhp on the best day of their lives. Much less do they then drive down the road flat-out, pulling that power.

Last year I slowed from 70-75 down to 60-65 and the trans seems okay on the two runs I made at that speed. Just that little bit of speed change made a world of difference because of the dramatic change to the continuous power required.

If you let the truck lose speed on hills..... again, MASSIVE amounts of power can be consumed on hills. I have completely consumed 600+hp on hills, towing with my 250.... no pedal left down there simply MAINTAINING speed...


Point being.... 99% of the time, guys with a story like yours above have a truck that puts down 250rwhp in the hottest program they have, with the stars all aligned and perfect conditions. Then they take off towing in their "tow" program, which doesn't even make that..... THEN.... they drive down the road at half pedal because they can't keep EGT in check....

Go write a program, and set up a 7.3 that makes 300+ rwhp ON THE DYNO, then go lay it TO THE FLOORBOARD for 2 HOURS and let me know what that ZF6 has to say.

10:1 odds you couldn't even put together a 7.3 to MAKE enough continuous power to melt a ZF without running excessive egt and killing itself in the first place.

Maybe some of you should focus on that. Can your engine even MAKE 300+ for hours on end? That might be step one in understanding why you don't have trans temp issues...

:doh:

 

[Charles]

Why would any person not asking for failure tow on a 300 hp tune? My zf 6 has oil cooler on it

Wow.... you answered it FOR me....

The above proves, proof-positive... you DO NOT UNDERSTAND the power being put through the trans when they die.

You obviously don't mind driving slow as *** down the interstate.


If I want to run 70 in a 70mph zone coming back from the Farm with a load of round bales, I need ~300hp TO THE GROUND to make that happen. Anything less and the truck will have to be gearing down and losing speed all the time.

A ZF6 will not support this request because it can't keep itself cool. I don't know what modifications are needed to change this, as I haven't found any success yet.... maybe this year...

A 4R100 will support this power continuously without overheating, no changes are needed.

 

[Buffalo444]

Just throwing this out there, but the factory zf6 is rated to 650 ft/lbs like has been stated, but according to for Ford's transmission naming system, the 4R100 (4 forward gears, Reverse, 100x10 ft/lb rating) is rated to 1000 ft/lbs.

 

[Stroked550]

I put a lot of miles on grossing around 40k. Truck is around 270 HP at the tires, a lot of time running wot through hills, ect. Have flat killed 2 zf6s doing this. Doubt it would have ever been a problem with a lighter load simply because the truck wouldn't have seen the continuous power through the trans. With the stock cooler setup I could easily see 250 deg trans fluid. I'm going to give it one more try with the next trans and a bigger cooler but the rear axle will probably be the next weak link.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

 

[Charles]

I put a lot of miles on grossing around 40k. Truck is around 270 HP at the tires, a lot of time running wot through hills, ect. Have flat killed 2 zf6s doing this. Doubt it would have ever been a problem with a lighter load simply because the truck wouldn't have seen the continuous power through the trans. With the stock cooler setup I could easily see 250 deg trans fluid. I'm going to give it one more try with the next trans and a bigger cooler but the rear axle will probably be the next weak link.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

I replaced the carrier bearings in our 550 rear axle year before last because they were trashed. U-joints still feel good in the driveshaft though. The axle had a small leak on the third-member so I'm wondering if it was ever run low on fluid at some point before we owned it. I'm hopeful that it will not give me any more trouble. That sh*t's big and heavy and so far from easy to work on.

 

[Charles]

This is correspondence from ZF from the year 2000.

The transmissions between GM and Ford are very much the same. Specific differences are driven by the vehicle package requirements. The guts of the product are nearly the same.

This product is not capable of 650 Lb.Ft.! It is currently released to 520 Lb.Ft.. We see the product over the next 5 years growing to the 600 Lb.Ft. torque level. We do not expect the ZF S6-650 ever growing over 600 Lb.Ft..

With best regards,

Wolfgang Schmid
Manager Marketing & Communications
ZF Group North American Operations
Corporate Office

Phone (859) 282- 4344
Fax (859) 282 - 4311
[email protected]

Fwiw, I think the F-550 with the auto had the highest weight rating. The manual never exceeded 26,000.

 

[Binder man]

Why would any person not asking for failure tow on a 300 hp tune? My zf 6 has oil cooler on it

They do it to maintain speed with the load. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, but what charle's is saying is 100% true. 300HP really isn't that much to ask for when towing, considering the new motors are 400HP from the factory take in driveline loss and your still at or above 300. Have you towed with a new one compared to 7.3? Theres so much difference its not funny. Even a 6.4 will walk a trailer where 7.3's will bog down and lose speed. I'm not dogging the 7.3, obviously as I have/had plenty of them, there still my top choice. But on a good day a stock 7.3 might make 200 to the wheels maybe. Thats why guys with a chip never have problems because there tow tune would be lucky to be at 240. Now throw a set of 400/400's big oil and twin turbos in a truck with a zf6 that can make 600HP, idle like stock, and never get hot dragging whatever weight you want, and you start melting ZF's and U-joints and carriers.

Truck pullers use their power for MAYBE 10 seconds at a peak, hence why they don't have issues.

You guys are comparing apples to oranges with charles. Guys with stock trucks and a ZF even with a tune that you can hold to the floor with a good load and never get hot will never have a issue with these trannies.

Yes you do have a oil cooler for that ZF but it's simply not enough for a high horsepower truck. A ZF holds very little fluid whereas a 4R will hold 4 gallons or more if it is dry. Then add a GOOD cooler like a 6L trans cooler compared to the factory excuse for a cooler on a ZF. Which is why I say to make a ZF hold you need to have a external oil supply that will hold at least that of a 4R to ever give it a chance at living behind a high horsepower truck. Along with a adequate cooler of some sorts.