My tow pig/DD build thread. F350/Cummins 6.7/twins/6R140

TurboM700

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Hmmm Yes your in a pickle on this one.

For what its worth here in MN I have been pulled over twice and measured and If I remember correctly MN has one of the longest triple pull allowed.

How do you figure the engine/transmission swap will cost 5k. I cant see it costing less then 15k by the time you get the transmission and controller along with all the other misc stuff in there.

With all that being said and knowing what I know now I would do a DPF delete mild tune and extend it out to a true 6dr truck and driver her till she blows you could easily get another 100k out of her. Then do a 6.7 swap.

Also you should really fill out your location and what kind of trucks you have makes it easier for some to comment on stuff.
 

me2

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Excursion and a tow buddy...
A tow buddy behind a Sprinter van shell dropped on an F350 chassis with a twin turbo 6.7 and 6R140... ????

If I did an Excursion, I'd buy the X body, cut the cab on my 08 behind the driver's seats, cut the X body to match and drop it on. Just as much, if not more work, and then I'm back to needing a truck with a box again.

If I used a tow buddy behind my F350, I could do the cab extension and go with a 5 foot box.

If I move the rear axle back to the very end of the frame on my 08, I could build a tow bed with the 5th wheel hitch mounted above the axle and keep the stock overall length. though the wheel base would still change.

Of all of these options, extending the cab on my 08 is the most versatile and the least work.
 

IHPowerstroke7.3

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I hear ya about not wanting a motorhome. We race sprint cars and all travel mostly within ontario, Canada. Friends of ours have a nice motorhome and tow their 30 ft trailer behind. His son on the other hand hates motorhomes due to the floor layout. So he took one of his old 379 pete's in his fleet, deleted the 2nd drive axle, extended the wheelbase some and dropped a bumper pull trailer on the frame. Has the floorplan of the tag trailer, can haul just about anything. I don't have pictures, but could get some. I know you said you don't want to be a "big rigger" either just an idea.

Been following this thread as well as yours on the nation. All I can say is no matter how it ends up, this will be a unique truck. I wouldnt worry about not being able to sell it because when you get it the way you like it, you probably never will.
 

me2

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How do you figure the engine/transmission swap will cost 5k. I cant see it costing less then 15k by the time you get the transmission and controller along with all the other misc stuff in there.

I paid $7K for the 6.7 Cummins. I'll get at least $6K for my 6.4L, if not more. I say that because I have a guy that wants to buy it as soon as its out.

I paid $2450 for the 6R140 with TC. I'll get $1500 for my 5R110 and TC. I have someone that wants it too.

The S475 turbocharger cost $650, brand new. I probably could have scrounged one from a take out DD S60, but I decided that it was better to start with a new one.

So lets say it costs me $2500 in the major hard parts for the swap.

I'm building the adapter plate, engine mounts, exhaust manifold and piping. Not much cost there. I'll need some new hoses, wiring materials, fluids, etc.

EFI Live cost $900, but a) I needed it anyway and b) 4 of us are using it together, splitting the cost. Ditto with Auto Enginuity, though only 3 ways.

It will cost about $150 to do each driveshaft, depending on how much needs to change on each.

The microcontrollers that run everything cost $60 each, though I have to put them in suitable boxes.

What else is there ?

With all that being said and knowing what I know now I would do a DPF delete mild tune and extend it out to a true 6dr truck and driver her till she blows you could easily get another 100k out of her. Then do a 6.7 swap.

a. I don't trust the reliability of a 6.4, especially when its modded and especially when used for tow duty.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20131

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21140

b. Waiting until an engine is blown is the wrong time to do a swap, in my opinion. Its much better to sell the engine while it runs well, especially when its still in the truck and the buyer can drive it.

As fas as I can tell, a used Cummins engine costs the same or less than a used Ford diesel engine, making the engine cost part of the swap nearly zero in most cases.
 
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me2

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I hear ya about not wanting a motorhome. We race sprint cars and all travel mostly within ontario, Canada. Friends of ours have a nice motorhome and tow their 30 ft trailer behind. His son on the other hand hates motorhomes due to the floor layout. So he took one of his old 379 pete's in his fleet, deleted the 2nd drive axle, extended the wheelbase some and dropped a bumper pull trailer on the frame. Has the floorplan of the tag trailer, can haul just about anything. I don't have pictures, but could get some. I know you said you don't want to be a "big rigger" either just an idea.

Some of the boys on Pirate4x4 have put bumper pull and even 5ers onto gooseneck trailers to make really nice toy haulers. Pretty slick and not really that hard to do, especially if you can buy a gooseneck instead of making it from scratch.

But at this time an HDT anything is not in the cards for us.
 

Jason

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No offense...but you are expecting way too much out of a pickup, when hauling that kind of weight. For what you are wanting (and i know you "dont want one"), a hdt truck is your best bet. $30k can get you a clean 70" bunk 379 Pete, make it a single axle, 475-500hp with a 13 speed, and a 3.36 rear gear. That would pull your load uphill faster than a pickup could ever think about, a real engine brake for downhill, you wont ever wear it out with that sort of weight behind it either. Remove the bed, and install 4-5 seats in the sleeper and everybody can ride in more comfort than any pickup, not to mention the safety aspect. That truck wouldnt even notice if that second trailer started whipping around for some reason. And you should see double digit fuel mileage as well. A set of drive tires should get you 10 years...hell they would dry rot before wearing out, as they would have...3k more lbs on them than bobtailing...and a class 8 truck wont notice 3k lbs. Hell, my pete always felt empty power wise, until i put 10k lbs in the wagon, then the ride only smoothed out more...and that was at 40k gross..and it would still accelerate and pull like it was empty.
 

me2

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No offense...but you are expecting way too much out of a pickup, when hauling that kind of weight.

I've been doing it for 14 seasons without any problems. I think after that length of time reality and my expectations are pretty well in sync.
 

me2

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No. Unfortunatly drive through's are not possible. It might be possible if it was a srw but I wouldn't wanna risk it. I just park and walk inside.

Thanks.

I certainly have to be careful doing drive throughs with sharp turns with my current truck. I will be interesting to see how adding 19 inches to it changes things.
 

me2

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We discussed things last night and came to the conclusion that a stretched crew cab Superduty is the best solution for us.

Our family is at a point where we have a 10 year window of family trips in front of us and we need a vehicle to support them. We only live life once and this is something we want to enjoy while we have the chance. If this truck is the price of admission, so be it.

After a lot of thought, I have decided that the stretch will be a full crew cab section extension together with a short box bed. This will require a 191 inch wheelbase, versus the 172 inch wheelbase of a CC LB and the 156 inch wheel base of a CC SB.

There will obviously be some trade offs in doing this. Should the stretched truck be too unweildly as a daily driver, I'll revert to using my '99 CC SB for tasks requiring a more nimble truck. I didn't want to sell it anyway and my wife likes having an extra vehicle for contingencies.

The question then becomes is my 08 F350 King Ranch long box crew cab the right truck for the stretch/swap ?

- a long box truck will require 2 frame splices versus 1 for a short box truck.

- a long box truck needs a box swap or cut to become a short box.

- my 08 is in really nice condition. The cab stretch will require repainting the cab anyway, so could make use of a (less expensive) truck that is in less good condition and/or is damaged a bit.

- I'm unsure if it being a King Ranch is good or not. King Ranch seats are very expensive and we want the new truck to have 6 bucket seats, 1 console in the front and 2 fold down middle seats like those used in the 40/20/40 seating setups in the back 2 rows.

If one replaces all the seats from a King Ranch truck with non King Ranch seats, one gets to sell the King Ranch seats and recoup some cost. If one uses King Ranch seats in the stretched truck, it gets expensive.

- I find the 2011/2012 Superduties a bit more appealing because of the electric locking rear axle, they are newer, I like the look at bit better, better nav system, Sync, which my 08 doesn't have and cannot be easily added, they already have a 6R140 transmission, heated and cooled seats, and rear seat vents. Yes, I would swap out the Ford 6.7 for the Cummins 6.7.

Having said all that about the 11/12s, I love the 08-10 trucks.

The 2011-12 trucks have a few drawbacks as a stretch/swap candidate including that they use a water to air intercooler, there are fewer of them around for used donor parts, especially interior parts and I think the passenger seat area is smaller on a 11/12 than on an 08-10. I think the hood is bigger though and that would make fitting the TT6.7 easier. The fuel tank is also smaller due to the DEF tank, but if I use a short box truck, I'll probably swap in a long box fuel tank anyway, as I'll have plenty of length to do so.

- if I bought a different truck for the stretch/swap project, I could chose a color other than white, though I am not against having a white truck.

Bottom line is that I believe I could sell my 08 for what I have in it and thus I'm going to look around a bit to see if there is a better stretch/swap candidate out there.

In the mean time, in addition to all the other things going on in my life, I'll gather information about doing the stretch, get the CNC plasma cutter going and work on the Cummins 6.7.

At this point my plan is to do the swap and the stretch at the same time. If I did them separately, I'd have to deal with the rear driveshaft twice and it might be nicer doing the swap with the cab off. I'll probably also do the rear air ride suspension before the box is put back on. It would also be easier to do that way.

I have a lot of work ahead of me.
 

Jason

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Still think my idea makes the most sense.


If youre set on cutting something up, cut the 99. It already has your air ride on it, and swapping a 6.7 would be easy since you have a 5.9 in it now. Then keep your 08 for dd status. I dunno, i know you are arguementative, and dont take criticism that isnt what you want to hear. It just seems like you are throwing a ton of money down the drain and chopping up good vehicles to make something. That isnt going to be anywhere near ideaal from a safety standpoint. But, its your wife and kids, not mine.
 

me2

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Still think my idea makes the most sense.
Then you should do it ! Thank you for your polite suggestion. I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about HDT pitfalls.

They don't work for me, I don't want one. Period. End of story.

That isnt going to be anywhere near ideaal from a safety standpoint.
From a safety standpoint ? That argument is baseless and getting old. Its fear mongering.
 

me2

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I would not worry about the extra length. It is not as bad as you seem to think it is. I am speaking from personal experience. I have an F-450 that I drive for work as my service truck and it has a 200" wheelbase. It is also a drw. Don't get me wrong, it does take a different aproach to drive it, but once you get used to it you will not notice it as much. It is harder to park than my crew cab (will not fit in a single parking space, have to pull through 2) but not so much that I can not use it to go to walmart, lowe's, home depot, etc.

I daily drive this truck and over the last 3 years have put over 100k miles on the truck. No fenders bent or hitting anything so far (knock on wood).
The only time I would see the added length being a problem would be when you are trying to park the camper at a camp ground. I would assume that you are usually reserving pull through camping sites but know that is not always possible. I would say if you had to back into a camp site and the roadway was not very wide that it could then become an issue.

If I was you I would go with the full door extention and not the extended cab for a number of reasons.

1. As explained above, I don't believe that the added length of the wheel base will affect your driving as much as you fear.

2. The longer wheel base might help with the ride of the truck as the front end will have more time to recover from whatever has upset the suspension before the rear will have to deal with it.

3. I have an extended cab truck and the back seat is bout useless except for carrying cargo and tools. While there is a seat back there, watching a full grown adult fit back there for any length of time is quite comical. (I stuffed a buddy of mine back there after having to pick him up from a bar late one night for about 45 mins)

Just my .02

^^^^ Very helpful post. Greatly appreciated.
 

Vader's Fury

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If you have any other questions feel free to ask or pm me. I am working on gathering all the stuff to do a cab extension myself and have looked into it alot over the past few months.
 

me2

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If you have any other questions feel free to ask or pm me. I am working on gathering all the stuff to do a cab extension myself and have looked into it alot over the past few months.

OK !

Are all the cabs interchangeable over the years ('99 to 2013) or do certain years only work with same years ? Has the back panel changed over the years for cab vents or seat belt mounts ? Have the rear seat mounts stayed the same ?

How are you going to handle the roof seam, the headliner and the carpet ?

Are you going to pull your cab to work on it (and the frame) or leave it on the frame ? Some shops seem to leave them attached, but I would rather weld on an open frame.

How are you going to handle controlling 6 power windows from the driver's seat in a truck that was originally wired for 4 ?

Are you going to use a piece of Ford frame for the extension or a piece of common steel, properly sized/bent ? How are you intending to cut it or fish plate it ?

Are you going to do anything to facillitate better air flow into the back 2 rows of seats ? I don't think the dash air is going to cut it.

What are you going to use for seats ?

I'm thinking of pulling my cab, stripping it except the dash and sending it to a body shop to have them install the extension and paint it. I'm thinking I'll handle everything else. How are you planning to do yours ?

What length of box are you going to use and how are you going to get it to that length ? Is it feasible to build an odd length box, like 7 feet ?

Have you priced anything out yet ?
 
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Vader's Fury

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OK !

Are all the cabs interchangeable over the years ('99 to 2013) or do certain years only work with same years ? I know from 1999 to 2007 they are all the same. I have not physically put my hands on a 08-10 or a 11-13 to check but I have been told the 08-10 is the same as well.
Has the back panel changed over the years for cab vents or seat belt mounts ? The 99-07 are all the same.Have the rear seat mounts stayed the same ?Rear seat mounts also are the same from 99-07. One thing to note though if you plan to run the 40-20-40 seat like the front seat in all the back rows you will need to drill the holes for a few of the bolts. At least I had to in my XLT.

How are you going to handle the roof seam,I was planning to step the end of the roof seam and weld one overtop of the other. If you look at the way it is done factory it will give you a better idea of what I am saying. I was planning to use the stock roof of the new rear section that i would be adding and joining it to the original cab roof. the headliner and the carpet ?Carpet plan was to modify 2 factory carpet molds so that the seam would be located underneath the second row of seats. I figure with some time and patience I could get it to look like the seam was not even there.

Are you going to pull your cab to work on it (and the frame) or leave it on the frame ? Some shops seem to leave them attached, but I would rather weld on an open frame. I plan to pull the cab. Actually I already have pulled the cab. I like the ability to get to everything without issue or interference. I plan to build a stand that will hold my current 4 door but be extendable so that when I mate the new rear section to it, it will hold it and help me with aligning everything properly.

How are you going to handle controlling 6 power windows from the driver's seat in a truck that was originally wired for 4 ? My plan is to use the factory 4 window switches to control the original 4 front doors. I have plans to build a custom center console to go between the 2 front captains chairs and was planning to add 2 switches in that console to controll the rear 2 windows. I was planning to modify a switch for a standard cab truck to fit and give it a factory look.

Are you going to use a piece of Ford frame for the extension or a piece of common steel, properly sized/bent ? How are you intending to cut it or fish plate it ? This is one place where my project might differ from yours. I am working on building a 6 door excursion, not a 6 door crew cab.(although most of the project is very similar except the frame) My plan is to cut the original CC frame below the rear doors before the frame rise. Then with the excursion I will cut the frame under the front doors before the rear doors and will mate it together using the front frame of the CC and the rear frame of the Excursion. I have to do it this way do to differences in the rear section of frame between the truck and excursion frame. The way I see it you have a couple of different options on how you could do it, dependent on if you have an entire donor truck to use or just a cab section.

1. Using an entire donor truck (ccsb ideally) you could make the frame cuts the same way I have layed out above and just mate the front of the CCLB to the rear of the CCSB. This would give you only one "seam" where the 2 sections of frame are mated together.

2. You could cut your frame and space it out the required distance and just add a piece of factory frame. I do not like this option mainly because it leaves you with 2 "seams" to reinforce.

3. You could cut your frame and space it out the required distance and just add a piece of common steel. I do not like this option mainly because it leaves you with 2 "seams" to reinforce and I don't believe it will look as factory as the first or second option.

As for how I plan to cut it, I plan to use a step cut i believe it is called. You cut half way down through the frame member, then cut horizontally for a few inches then down the rest of the way through the frame. I plan to reinforce it with a plate on the inside of the frame similar to how ford does the front sub-frame section on the trucks from the factory.


Are you going to do anything to facillitate better air flow into the back 2 rows of seats ? I don't think the dash air is going to cut it. With the excursion air system I was not to worried about this so I did not give it much thought. I do know that the air system is the same for a RC truck as it is for a CC so idk of any upgrades you would be able to make to the factory system. You could always look into grafting the rear cooling system from an excursion into the rear section. Maybe underneath the rear most cab section or behind the seat? I will think about this some more and check out our company excursion tomorrow when it comes in my shop for service.

What are you going to use for seats ? I plan to use my factory captains chairs for the first row. That will be followed up with a set of the 40-20-40 seats from the front row of another XLT that I aquired. I plan to use the factory 2nd and 3rd row of seats from the Excursion for my 3rd and 4th row due to the needs for a flip forward seat to gain access to the rear most row of seats.

I'm thinking of pulling my cab, stripping it except the dash and sending it to a body shop to have them install the extension and paint it. I'm thinking I'll handle everything else. How are you planning to do yours ? I plan to do all the body work myself as from what I have looked at it seems very straight forward. The body sections are "modular" in design from everything I have seen so far, so they should go back together fairly easily. (that is my hope at least) I should say that I sources a wrecked truck that was already stripped down to the sheet metal to do a trial run on. I plan to pull the back wall off this cab and get an idea where all the spot welds are located and if there is any hidden things I may have missed so far.

What length of box are you going to use and how are you going to get it to that length ? Is it feasible to build an odd length box, like 7 feet ? I am using the rear section of the excursion in place of my box so my plan will not apply here. Although I do have a few ideas. I believe it all comes down to what compromises you are willing to make. Is your number one goal to keep the overall wheelbase/vehicle length under a certian size? Or are you willing to add wheelbase length to have a certain size bed? For me bed space is more important that the overall wheelbase. No matter what I do I always find myself in a situation at one point or another where I wish the bed of my truck was bigger. For me an 8' bed is the only option. Also I dislike the sliding 5th wheel designs. I want mine rigid mounted to the frame so I know it is not going anywhere.

Have you priced anything out yet ?
I actually have been collecting parts for this project over the last few years. A little here and a little there as money permits and I could find deals that made the purchase worthwhile. Currently I have all the pieces that I believe I need with the exception of the Excursion. I have not found one in the price range that I am willing to spend in a condition that is satisfactory for me yet. Once I do find it I plan to start this project as I am getting antsy and tired of waiting :LOL:


I hope that helped a little. If you need more info on any specific part, let me know. I will be back on here tomorrow morning to check in. Got a hot date tonight (1 year anniversary) so I doubt I will be online again today.
 

Hotrodtractor

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A long time ago Dad had a LoPro Chevy cab stretched.... basically cut the rear of the cab off, bent up side panels to match the body lines and reinstalled the rear of the cab... basically like a super long 2 door extended cab....

262016_10150200410523038_6910830_n.jpg


The only reason I got rid of that truck was it was gutless. I wish I had kept it and installed a good engine under the hood and kept it for pulling trailer. It was as nimble as a CCLB dually pickup with better brakes and load carrying capacity - but it had a ****ty 3116 CAT hooked to a 6 speed....

Anyway - I know you don't want to talk MDT - but extending the cab is not hard - I've also shortened and lengthened a few truck frames for various purposes - I have a 1985 Chevy CCSB sitting here that I shortened for someone a couple of years ago that needs a new owner - I started with a CCLB dually - "Z" cut the frame in two spots and slid everything together. With the bed off, fuel tanks off, etc.... I cut it, aligned it, welded it all back together in about 4 hours total. I used some of the original frame material from the chunk that was removed as gussets on the inside of the frame.
 

me2

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I hope that helped a little. If you need more info on any specific part, let me know. I will be back on here tomorrow morning to check in. Got a hot date tonight (1 year anniversary) so I doubt I will be online again today.

Thanks. It was very helpful. Enjoy your date !

I knew the cab splice is modular and pretty straight forward. I'm just not much for body work.
 

Powerstroke Cowboy

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One Question I have for you.... Are you getting the Ford 6 speed auto built????


In stock form I would not trust it with the power you are hoping toput down on a long trip...

I personaly think it will break or just flat out let you sitting next to the road.... The 5 speed in your curant pickup is a better tranny then the 6 speed you want to put in place of it...

There are to many of ford 6 speeds dropping like flys out here.... just saying.. and some of them are on gassers....
 

me2

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One Question I have for you.... Are you getting the Ford 6 speed auto built????
I wasn't going to. I'm not aware of any aftermarket parts for the 6R140.

In stock form I would not trust it with the power you are hoping toput down on a long trip...

I personaly think it will break or just flat out let you sitting next to the road.... The 5 speed in your curant pickup is a better tranny then the 6 speed you want to put in place of it...

There are to many of ford 6 speeds dropping like flys out here.... just saying.. and some of them are on gassers....

I'd love to hear about these problems. Where is your source ?

http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1896060#post1896060
 
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