My tow pig/DD build thread. F350/Cummins 6.7/twins/6R140

[IHPowerstroke7.3]

One Question I have for you.... Are you getting the Ford 6 speed auto built????


In stock form I would not trust it with the power you are hoping toput down on a long trip...

I personaly think it will break or just flat out let you sitting next to the road.... The 5 speed in your curant pickup is a better tranny then the 6 speed you want to put in place of it...

There are to many of ford 6 speeds dropping like flys out here.... just saying.. and some of them are on gassers....

I would put the new 6 speed up for the challenge against any other light duty truck transmission on the market and I bet it would take the cake. Just like the 6 speeds in the f150 which they are based on they are tough. Ive yet to see a 6 speed in an f150 have a failure other than a fluid leak. Most of the 6r140 problems i have seen have been solenoid/software related, and there is a Bulletin for the issues and solenoids are changed. I have pulled at capacity with my dads 10 f150 a trailer weighing just shy of 10,000 lbs. I pulled the pan for service at 30 000 miles, looked mint. Less clutch material then i expected to see. I have pulled pans on a few 6r140s for service and they are the same, clean. One i did the other day was a 6.2 gasser, 120 000 kms first service, spotless. Truck had a pintle hitch on it and it looks like it gets used often. They did there homework with it. Trying to get the same toughness with different programming may be tough but possible. Hate to say it and don't want to sound like an ass, but customers wanting smooth, gentle shifts in a light duty truck transmission need to give there head a shake.

 

[IHPowerstroke7.3]

Oh I forgot. As for the Cabs, 99-07 are the same cabs but 08-10 are different. Firewall/ bulkhead is different because of the heater box setup. Notice on your 08 how its in the cab? As far as 11 and newer I'm not sure i haven't looked that closely. However I have had the dash out of both 08-10 and 11s and they mount the same. But the heater boxs are different yet again. Another thing you have to think about, curtain airbags. DOH! :fustrate:

 

[me2]

Oh I forgot. As for the Cabs, 99-07 are the same cabs but 08-10 are different. Firewall/ bulkhead is different because of the heater box setup. Notice on your 08 how its in the cab?

Yes, I have noticed that because the heater box is a clearance problem with turbos on the '99-07s but there seems to be more room in that area on my 08.

As far as 11 and newer I'm not sure i haven't looked that closely. However I have had the dash out of both 08-10 and 11s and they mount the same. But the heater boxs are different yet again.

My dad has an '11 and I swear that the passenger footwell is much smaller than on my 08. That might be why.

Another thing you have to think about, curtain airbags. DOH! :fustrate:

One could work around or with them, depending on the situation. I'd just wire the ones in the new section to the ones in the rear of the existing section. Ford dealers have a way to disconnect the air bags themselves and test for proper functionality. I think they use dummy air bag fuses. It would be nice to have them if there was ever an accident. I'd pay extra to have them.

I'm only interested in the structural differences in the rear of cabs as I would be cutting out the rear wall of the existing cab and replacing it with the entire rear seat section of another crew cab.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

not trying to get into a 6 speeds are junk war here.. Just stating what I have heard from guys around me that have them..

Our UPS driver has a 2011 gasser with the 6 speed... Transmission went out with less then 80k miles on it..... Stock

Local farmer... was hauling hay out of the fields with his 2011 diesel 6 speed.. His transmission literaly split open and broke pieces inside that fell out... less then 30k miles on it.. Stock..

I have friend that works in the oil field and he said they had two Transmissions go out in there fleet of 2011 diesel pickups... stock He said they both had less then 40k on them.. In fact i think it wa less then 30k...

Funny thing is all the guys I have talked to said they had no problems with the trannys on there 2008 to 2010 pickups.. even after 200k+ miles... still work great...

For me.. I would not buy or use one intill they are proven!!

I wonder if ford reflash updates help thet tranny problems at all...

 

[me2]

For me.. I would not buy or use one intill they are proven!!

I gave transmission selection a lot of thought before starting this project. One of the things I did was lurk in the high performance forums and watch which transmissions were standing up to big power and how many of them were failing.

Its been a while since I did this, but I can't recall a single 6R140 failure. There were shifting issues, probably due to controller tuning, but I have yet to find someone reporting a failure, and that includes a lot of 6.7 owners running big power tunes.

The other thing I did was contact a couple rebuilders and ask them what they were seeing. I don't recall anyone saying they had even worked on a 6R140. Certainly none had aftermarket parts. Given what people do to these transmissions, that is quite a statement.

I've got an open mind. Its not too late for me to change transmissions in this project. A quick search still fails to show any weaknesses with the 6R140, again, even under tuned engine abuse. But if you can point me to a dealer that is experiencing trouble with these transmissions, I'd love to talk to them.

Here is another annecdote. When I was working on the flex plate and adapater plate designs, I desperately needed a few measurements off the back of a Ford 6.7.

So I visited a few local Ford service departments where I have contacts and offered a bounty to the first one that could show me a 6.7 split from a 6R140. I still haven't received a call, though they have called me about other things and have assured me they haven't forgotten.

Again, if you have specific information that these transmissions are failing, I want to know about it.

 

[me2]

I'm looking at a bunch of used trucks for the swap/stretch project. Presently the list includes a 2011 KR, a 2011 Lariat, my 2008 KR, a 2008 Lariat SB and an engineless 2008 XL.

I need advise on 3 things.

1. I want a fully optioned truck when I am done, with KR interior colors, minus the KR seats. How much work and headache is it to upgrade an XL to that sort of trim level ? I'm suspecting that adding things like the backup sensor to a 2008 XL would be a major pain if not outright impossible ? I know its impossible to add OEM wireless remote door locks to a '99 XLT.

2. Given that I want to keep this truck for 10 years and I'm not too worried about selling it in the end, how much value should I put on starting with a 2011 versus a 2008 ?

3. How much value should I put on the air bag curtains in the 2011s ? If the difference between the best 2008 truck and the best 2011 truck was $2K or $5K, would you spend it knowing that if there was ever an accident those air bag curtains were there ?

Before anyone answers, my bias when doing swaps is to start with a really good candidate truck, whether it comes that way or whether I make it that way. I'm not one to do a swap on a truck that won't be in really good shape when I am done. So I'll end up with the same level of truck no matter what I start with.

Sorry I've taken this thread awry, but its easiest for me to ask these questions here, where everyone understands the context, rather than in a separate thread.

Thanks

 

[Vader's Fury]

Adding factory options is a PITA! It usually requries all the wire harnesses, computers, and sensors and even after that sometimes you need to have programming done to make everything work properly.

I would start with a truck that is at the trim level that you want to be at when finished and go from there. That way all you have to figure out is how to extend all of those options to the new rear section you will be grafting onto the cab.

I would go for the newest truck you can justify spending the required cash on. If you plan to keep it for 10 years why not? I know if I could afford to do my project with a newer truck I def would be. The only down side I can see is the newer the truck, and the more options it has, the more work and time that will be required to bring the new rear section up to the same standards.

I personally wouldn't have given a second thought to the side curtain air bags till 2 weeks ago. While on vacation, my sister and a car full of her friends got t-boned at an intersection when a titan ran a stop sign. I am positive that the only thing that stopped my sister and the driver from sustaining head injuries was the fact that the side curtain airbags stopped either one of them from hitting there heads on the door/window when the truck hit the driver side of there vehicle.

 

[me2]

I agree with everything you said above, VA. That is exactly how I feel about it too.

Especially adding the factory options. Its time consuming, its a PITA and its not cheap.

Thanks for the sober second opinion.

 

[IHPowerstroke7.3]

I also agree. Adding factory options will cause more issues then you will have stretching what is already equipped. Things like navigation and nice leather can all be added afterwards with better aftermarket equipment. Have a pioneer setup in my truck and its night and day better then the factory. I have sirius, bluetooth, back up cam, dvd and all the goodies in a 2000. I have seen katzkin leather seats in trucks that also look better then factory (havent' seen a kr style though I'm sure they make it).
Another thing I would be worried about with new trucks is advance trac. I'm not sure how it would react with change in wheelbase. I'm sure it could be disabled but its just another issue.

If you go with an 11 or newer, the 6r140 would already be there but there would be a lot of programing changes in the pcm in order to get it all to work. I'm sure you're capable of it. Also with its dual cooling system, you would have to change a lot of it and probably convert to a single rad. Again not a huge issue.

 

[me2]

So I've moved on from thinking I'd do this project with a stripped or wrecked truck.

I'm now weighing the pros, cons and costs of doing this project with my 08 6.4 KR, a 2011 lease back 6.7 KR (80K miles ish), a brand new 6.7 KR or a brand new gasser KR.

The 2011+ trucks have a slightly larger engine bay, newer body styling, side curtain air bags, a slightly updated interior, 3.55 gearing (is that good or bad ?), electric locking diff, and a smaller fuel tank if you buy the 6.7. I could probably use the water to air intercooler setup that comes with the 6.7 and it might allow for inter stage cooling with the twins.

If I did the project with a 2011 gasser, I could get 3.73 gears in a SRW. I'd have to change the master cylinder from vacuum to hydroboost, but that is no biggie. I'd have to add an intercooler. The gasser 6R140 is different from the diesel 6R140, but I already have a nearly new diesel 6R140, so that is no biggie. I suspect the gasser engine would fetch a decent price making it cheaper to start with the gasser truck. And I wouldn't have to swap fuel tanks.

FYI, I'm not worried about money that I've already spent on parts that don't ultimately get used as I should be able to sell everything for what I paid for it. I'll have a yard sale when I am done.

I'm not against starting with a Lariat, but I'm not a big fan of the Lariat interior colors I've seen, especially in the 2011+ and I think the King Ranch packages give a ton of value for the cost. If I decide to use aftermarket seats in the completed project, I should get a very good dollar for the KR seats when I sell them. There is a new KR rear bench seat listed on eBay for $3800 right now.

The thing I like least about the KRs is the 2 tone exterior colors.

It would be really nice to do this project with a short box truck. I'm having a hard time finding just the right one.

Cost wise, adjusted for various things like selling the engines, upgrading the nav in my 08, etc. it would cost $5 to $8K more to do this project with a 2011 lease back truck and about $15K more to do it with a brand new truck, probably a gasser.

This truck will be our "go to" family vehicle for the next 10 years. I'm not sure how much value to put on starting with a new truck versus a lease back with 80K on it, given that the truck will be getting a new engine and transmission anyway. Nothing other than the engine and transmission seems to wear out on a Superduty and I find Superduties very easy and cheap to work on. Its no biggie for me to do ball joints, rod ends and brakes on a Superduty.

Is it worth $5 or $8K to go from an 08 to a 2011 ? Is it worth $15K to start with a completely new truck ? Any thoughts on all this ?

Cab interior wise, I am very happy with my 08. And there are some things that I don't like about the 2011s. Its a toss up for me in that regard. Except that the 2012s are now available in a dark King Ranch interior. I love that interior. I'd probably have to order a truck to get it though.

In other news, the body shop is very willing to do the cab stretch like I planned. They haven't gotten back to me with a quote yet, but they didn't think it would be a ton of work. Pretty run of the mill for them, actually. The big work in doing an extension is rebuilding the interior, but I'll handle that myself.

FYI, there are subtle changes in the doors and the cabs going from pre 08 to post 08. Things like seat belt mounts, cab mounts and the size and shape of the door wiring holes changed. Its best to stick with the same genre of cab if possible, though an earlier one can be made to work.

I/they are not certain about pre 2011/post 2011 cab compatibility.

I'm also a bit torn about what to do about the Nav system. There are 3 options.
1) Full factory nav system.
2) Aftermarket nav system.
3) truck PC system, with a touchscreen in the dash.

The later would offer the most versatility and it would be future proof going forward. For the cost of the factory nav system, I could build one heck of a truck PC system. FYI, this truck will have a 1,000 watt pure sine wave inverter built into it, so power the truck PC wouldnt' be a problem.

One thing I am really sick of is how easily and quickly factory and aftermarket vehicle entertainment systems become outdated and cannot be upgraded. All it takes is one change to an Apple product or a product format change and you are wishing for an upgrade. As nice and convenient as a Ford factory nav system is, you know that in 5 years there will be some new format or development that it won't handle.

 

[me2]

One of the big things that is stopping me from doing this project with my 08 KR is that its a long box.

A Ford Superduty pickup truck frame isn't flat. It rises up under the box. To keep the cab height the same on the frame, if you lengthen the cab, you need to lengthen the section of the frame under the cab.

Actually, with a Supercab extension you can probably get away without lengthening the section under the cab, but with a crew cab extension, you need to do it.

When I bought my 08, I was thinking that I would do a Supercab extension and be done. Things have changed. With the full crew cab extension, I will need to lengthen the frame under the cab by 35 inches.

One also needs to change the frame if you change box lengths. The section under the box needs to be adjusted for the length of box you put on.

Thus with my 08 KR being a long box, I would have to lengthen the frame under the cab by 35 inches as well as shorten the frame under the box by 16 inches, as well as move the box mounts.

I would also need to sell my long box, which has the King Ranch two tone paint, and buy a white short box.

Its not impossible to do all this, but its a heck of a lot easier to do a cab extension on a short box truck. With it all you have to do is lengthen the underside of the frame by 35 inches and you are done. Its a lot less work.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

One of the big things that is stopping me from doing this project with my 08 KR is that its a long box.

A Ford Superduty pickup truck frame isn't flat. It rises up under the box. To keep the cab height the same on the frame, if you lengthen the cab, you need to lengthen the section of the frame under the cab.

Actually, with a Supercab extension you can probably get away without lengthening the section under the cab, but with a crew cab extension, you need to do it.

When I bought my 08, I was thinking that I would do a Supercab extension and be done. Things have changed. With the full crew cab extension, I will need to lengthen the frame under the cab by 35 inches.

One also needs to change the frame if you change box lengths. The section under the box needs to be adjusted for the length of box you put on.

Thus with my 08 KR being a long box, I would have to lengthen the frame under the cab by 35 inches as well as shorten the frame under the box by 16 inches, as well as move the box mounts.

I would also need to sell my long box, which has the King Ranch two tone paint, and buy a white short box.

Its not impossible to do all this, but its a heck of a lot easier to do a cab extension on a short box truck. With it all you have to do is lengthen the underside of the frame by 35 inches and you are done. Its a lot less work.

Its probably worth just locating a short box frame and disecting it at the appropriate point under the "cab" area to graft onto the existing frame of the truck - that takes care of the changes for the long bed to short bed and the frame extension and makes it nice and clean in the end. Everything else should transfer over to the new frame piece from the long bed frame without too much difficulty with the lone exception possibly being the fuel tank.

 

[me2]

This project is giving me a headache again.

 

[me2]

Just found a mint 2011 cabshell, rear doors, frame and maybe a short box as well.

HRT: thanks for the idea on splicing 2 frames together instead of putting a section into 1 frame. Doing it that way makes it more feasible to buy a long box truck, which are available, versus a short box truck, which are harder find.

Life is good again.

 

[Vader's Fury]

Its probably worth just locating a short box frame and disecting it at the appropriate point under the "cab" area to graft onto the existing frame of the truck - that takes care of the changes for the long bed to short bed and the frame extension and makes it nice and clean in the end. Everything else should transfer over to the new frame piece from the long bed frame without too much difficulty with the lone exception possibly being the fuel tank.

This is how I am doing my frame. While there are other reasons I am doing mine this way, the main reason is there will only be one new seam in the frame when done.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Me2.... How long, deep and wide is a 6.7 cummins???

 

[me2]

Me2.... How long, deep and wide is a 6.7 cummins???

I posted drawings about 20 pages ago. The basic block measurements should be back there.

 

[me2]

I just bought a set of mint King Ranch rear seats and console. I'll use them in the middle row. I got a great deal.

My aftermarket seat idea fell through this afternoon.

Its pretty easy to sell KR stuff. I'll resell them if I decide not to use them.

I also bought 2 rear doors.

I now either have or have a line on all the major parts I need to do the cab extension. Things came together quickly and it looks like the parts will cost quite a bit less than I thought they would. I found some good parts at great prices.

The only missing piece is a short box. I'll wait to see if I use my 08 or buy a different truck before I act on finding one. All the other parts I bought will work on either an 08-10 or an 11-13.

FYI, there are tons of long boxes around because people put service bodies and decks on f450s and F350 long box trucks. Not many people take the box off a short box truck.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I can't seem to find it Me2.... All I could find was what the rough width was... nothing else..

 

[me2]

The profile drawing is here.
http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=333292&postcount=91

The shaded part at the front is the accessory drive. Add 3 inches for the stock (Dodge) fan from clutch hub to the front of the blades, IIRC.

The block is 12 inches wide +/- without anything hanging off of it. You'll have to make allowances for the exhaust manifold, turbos, starter, fuel filter, drive accessories, air intake, etc.