Non Vgt question

[hawgdoctor]

I would do the 64.5/68 with a .83 housing. Would spool damned near like stock, but never stop pulling. Had pretty much the same setup in my shop truck. Only difference was it had 205/100's. Cleaned them up to a slight haze. Haven't posted it yet, but our t4 kits ard on special this month for 1650 shipped.

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[04cr450]

Greg... I see you posting this all the time... but you always fail to mention that you added bigger injectors, new intercooler, no limit intake and a couple other things at the same time as the t4 kit. Its like comparing apples and oranges.

I would put our stage 3 up against a 64.5 any day of the week.

charlie, i post this all the time because it is the truth man, no bashing at all with your turbos as you know i am a huge fan of them- your vgt's work for sure- but for you to come back and say "i would put our stage 3 up against the 64.5" is crazy. i certainly did not bash the stage 3 i simply said it spooled the same as the 64.5(this was answering Merc's question on spool up comparisons). My data is accurate too because i went up from 175 to 205cc.. same nozzles(75%). you even said plenty of times, cc does not mean anything when tuning, tuners tune the injectors by nozzle size. you also can't get a non vgt kit without a t4 flange(unless custom made). Inter cooler and no limit- sure it helped but not enough to mention that in my opinion other than a tad lower egt temp.(i had an air raid intake and a stock inter cooler before)
Again, i am just giving out info this is not a bashing statement. gees a whiz... i even have my stage 2 still on the shelf for the next truck lol

 

[ahardiek]

Between a 64.5 or 66sxe on both. Anyone ran one or running one with 190/100s? Temps when loaded down and with what weight? Will be needing a new turbo soon.

 

[hawgdoctor]

Personally I would do the 64.5. Gonna light faster, and help keep it cooler.

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[Fox hunt]

Is that going to cause to much back pressure spec'd like that? I don't know a lot about non-vgts, but it seems the new sxe comes as a 64.5/74 .91 from what I see. I think 04cr450 had a 64.4/70 if I remember correctly. Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the 68 be a bit small?


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[04cr450]

68 is to small ^^ ebp was high.. go with a 70/.91 (I had this) and ebp was 1:1 just about all through the power band

 

[KCTurbos]

charlie, i post this all the time because it is the truth man, no bashing at all with your turbos as you know i am a huge fan of them- your vgt's work for sure- but for you to come back and say "i would put our stage 3 up against the 64.5" is crazy. i certainly did not bash the stage 3 i simply said it spooled the same as the 64.5(this was answering Merc's question on spool up comparisons). My data is accurate too because i went up from 175 to 205cc.. same nozzles(75%). you even said plenty of times, cc does not mean anything when tuning, tuners tune the injectors by nozzle size. you also can't get a non vgt kit without a t4 flange(unless custom made). Inter cooler and no limit- sure it helped but not enough to mention that in my opinion other than a tad lower egt temp.(i had an air raid intake and a stock inter cooler before)
Again, i am just giving out info this is not a bashing statement. gees a whiz... i even have my stage 2 still on the shelf for the next truck lol

Just saying that adding and intercooler, a no limit intake, and doubling the size of your injectors... and attributing all the power to the turbo is silly. For all you know the top end, egts, and power would be exactly the same as the stage 3.

Going from stock injectors to 175cc injectors is about the same jump as someone going from 175cc to 205cc. That is like doubling your upgrade over stock injectors. CC make a HUGE difference on the top end. I am not sure where you got that from. There is a big difference from 175/75 to 205/75s



What you did would be like someone with a 100% stock truck with stock injectors that could have unknown injector issues... then adds 175/75cc injectors, upgraded their intercooler, adds a no limit intake, and a stock billet wheel. Then when they go around talking about how much of a HUGE gain in top end power and lower egts they now see with with the billet wheel... A 100hp upgrade with a just a billet wheel. You are painting half a picture

Stage 3 68mm turbos see around 650-700hp all day long with larger injectors. Where does the s354.5 end up? You have posted many times that the stage 3 does not even compare on the top end to the s364.5... and forget to mention all the other upgrades you did at the same time.


Not trying to start anything... but just tired of seeing you post all the time and only painting half the picture.

 

[04cr450]

I'll agree to disagree charlie on the injector sizes. But find a post where I said the stage 3 does not compare to the 64.5? I just stated spool up comparisons and said they were exactly alike... how does not correlate to the stage 3 being a slouch to the 64.5? The problem is vgt guys are biased as heck when it comes to performance aspects and see non vgts as a bad word to the 6.0... I am a realist and like them both. The stage 3 is a nasty turbo I have also said many of times, my dyno runs have proved that as well.

 

[KCTurbos]

I'll agree to disagree charlie on the injector sizes. But find a post where I said the stage 3 does not compare to the 64.5? I just stated spool up comparisons and said they were exactly alike... how does not correlate to the stage 3 being a slouch to the 64.5? The problem is vgt guys are biased as heck when it comes to performance aspects and see non vgts as a bad word to the 6.0... I am a realist and like them both. The stage 3 is a nasty turbo I have also said many of times, my dyno runs have proved that as well.

Show me where a vgt guy is bashing on a non-vgt? I would like to see that. It is the other way around 90% of the time.

LOL... it is simple. 205/75s make more power than 175/75s. There is nothing to agree to disagree on. If you have injectors actually cut to 175cc then they cannot flow more than that. 205/75s will blow true 175s out of the water. In an effort for fun. Why don't I challenge you to a dual. You run 175/75s and s364.5. I will run 205/75s and a stage 3. Lets see how our theories hold up.


You asked me to find one post, well here you go. I am sure there are more... this took me about 2 mins with the search function.

no sir, I wont be at Delmarva days, ill be in mexico for a little vacation. Ill be at Rudy's though this weekend!

before this setup I made 638 hp on eric's dyno(live tune) with the kc 68mm turbo... this new setup feels much much stronger, I mean night and day difference esp. top end(obviously ).

update*** got truck up and operating this evening. I am really surprised on this setup, should have went to non vgt a long time ago. the 64.5 hardly has any lag, or matt at ******** nailed the tune. this setup compared to my 68mm vgt turbo is the same lag wise but power? the 64.5 bw blows away the 68mm vgt (don't have numbers but truck pulls way way harder with the non vgt).

I am also pleased to see very low egts, I couldn't for the life of me get the egts any higher than 1,260 give or take degrees(******** srlxx tune reduced fuel), and cruising is between 490-680 degrees depending on incline. so far I am very pleased with this setup, the sound is killer as well, unique fore sure. Only thing left to do is re position the dp so it stops hitting the frame.

with a regulated return, new hfcm pump, 6.4 hfcm pump, and sump, I hold 60 psi at all times with the holders 205/75 injectors(just some additional info).

I just completed this setup 364.5 x70x91 with 205/75's and love it. It's very fun to drive... and an animal compared to the stage 3 and stage 2 vgt set up I had before. Vgt has its place not knocking it.

it honestly surprised me on the seat of the pants feel... I figured it would have been the same seat of the pants feel as the vgt stage 3 and 175/75's.... I was wrong fortunately.
After talking with the guys at mpd when I purchased their up pipes- they sadi they have been selling lots of the 64.5's.

Setup is awesome, ttruck has great power night and day difference from the stage 3 vgt turbo and 175/75's. Egts are lower as well with the bigger injectors.
I don't have dyno times or track times, will though shortly as I had some trans shifting issues but that is now corrected. I have put about 1200 miles on it and really enjoy driving the truck.

 

[04cr450]

You found posts that where I did in deed say more power on top end which I've always stated... lag? Similar characteristics- but I never once bashed the stage 3 like it was a slouch- I never would because it a powerful turbo.... but now top end power like the 64.5 .. it's a different feel. I'm not arguing anymore- the original question was spool up differences.. I gave my reviews , then you translate that to your turbos being non competitive to the non vgts. All my comments were not bashing any turbos whatsoever. Charlie go non vgt purchase a 64.5 and see for yourself I don't know what else to say man.

 

[KCTurbos]

^^^^ You are missing the point. Quit posting mis-information and tell the whole truth. That is all I am asking. Quit comparing apples and oranges and claiming it as data.

You can't change your whole setup... and then use that as data.

 

[Dieselmore]

Charlie I think we need to do a real test. We could use your red truck . Full fuel tune on your stage 3, then change nothing expect the up pipes and turbo with a s364.5sx-e That would be great data, and lots of information for the end user in deciding their setups.

I willing to help in any way. Next time you stop by the shop lets talk about it.

 

[swinky]

Vgts are gay......

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[Six_Sloww]

Vgts are gay......

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Meh.

 

[jban126_f350]

Still riding on 37's stock gearing still can't decide what to do with that. Still this the 64.5 sxe will spool good? For should I go 62 or 63.

 

[hawgdoctor]

Stock injectors with s 68 turbine yes.

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[KCTurbos]

Charlie I think we need to do a real test. We could use your red truck . Full fuel tune on your stage 3, then change nothing expect the up pipes and turbo with a s364.5sx-e That would be great data, and lots of information for the end user in deciding their setups.

I willing to help in any way. Next time you stop by the shop lets talk about it.

That's a great idea... Just to make it fair and for bragging rights we will perform the test as greg did.

We will do the s364.5 with stock intercooler, AFE intake, and 175/75s

Then will will do the stage 3 with 205/75s, upgraded intercooler, and no limit intake.


That will be true test to see which one spools faster and which one has more power... right :badidea::stupid::shrug:

 

[04cr450]

If you think--- going from a stock working order intercooler to a steel csf $329 ebay intercooler and a bigger filter is going to make that much of a difference and produce false data- than the problem is with you not what i am saying... also going from 175cc to 205cc is not that big of a jump esp with 75% nozzles.. sorry but as YOU have said in prior posts "tuners tune by nozzle size not cc's- you were referring this comment to how tuners tune cummins and duramax engines)... This whole issue is YOU thinking I am bashing your turbos, i am certainly not, you are defensive as hell on this issue. Go buy a friggin fmw 64.5 turbo and see for yourself. Im done with this........

I go from giving the op /merc's advice on SPOOL UP SIMILARITIES and you come on here and bash me for it and getting yourself all worked up going in for the kill saying "ill put my stage 3 against the 64.5 any day".... GTFO

 

[KCTurbos]

You can try and spin the words however you want. Anybody who knows anything about these trucks knows that jumping from 175 to 205 is a big jump. Tuners do mainly tune for nozzles... BECAUSE THEY LET THE BODY SIZE limit the top end and the nozzle control the bottom end. That is why 175 to 205 makes no difference on the bottom end but make a huge jump on the top end when you keep the same nozzle. I am sorry if that was new information to you... but it is fact. On average you can get about 75-125hp more out of that jump. (about 2-3hp per cc).

I personally went from 175/75 to 285/75 and gained 100hp... with just an injector swap. I even kept the exact same nozzles. Same turbo. Same truck. Same Dyno.

Also everyone knows adding an intercooler helps with egts and flow. So does the no limit intake.


Point is... you changed your whole setup... quit posting like you did a back to back turbo swap and trying to provide people with data. When you explain the whole story it actually makes you sound untruthful and biased with the claims you are making. That is what I was pointing out.

 

[valvetick]

Still riding on 37's stock gearing still can't decide what to do with that. Still this the 64.5 sxe will spool good? For should I go 62 or 63.

On 37's and stock gearing I would be very concerned going with a big or non vgt for spool up. Gearing it to 4.30 would be the best.


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