Tow rig setup
- Thread starter NyCowboy87
- Start date
I put a 17deg Bosch (new) in mine in 2012, iirc, and i had the EXACT SAME FINDINGS. I even tried three dufferent sets of tunes. I told Bill about it and he said he could limit pw and icp a bit but then told me if i just went back a notch on my tunes, it'd do the same thing.
Somewhere, someone told me that a codes use less oil. I never set icp codes on my stock truck even with long, drawn-out pw tuning. A codes single shot with custom tunes, all day long. Especially with a race, hot, all-out, etc tune. But then again, I also found that those injectors werent suited to much over 400hp which flies in the face of the internet knowledge. I bought tunes. They were good. The "stock" tune was awesome and it is how the superduty ahould have been off the lots. The next two tunes were better in terms of fun. But after that it was obvious you are hanfing the injectors open to trrrrry to make power. The only time my truck has been dynoed was to figure out tuning on 175 a codes. They had 80% nozzles. I found 410hp to be where they were clean everywhere. No indications the truck is modded other than absolute power numbers. After that (i know every truck is different) it smoked or was hot in certain spots.
I was told i needed more oil. So I upgraded to a srp. It helped oil ramp quicker and obviously no more icp codes. Then i was told my trans was the culprit for low power numbers. That was after my compression #s were blamed. My compression was 400 all day. I put a twisted stg2 in and after all that my truck was making 425hp. So hardly worth the 7k to upgrade turbo, oil, and trans for those injectors.
Im sorry to ramble, but people need to know that they can do much better with other pieces. A 200cc hybrid and just pick a nozzle from 30-200% is a better deal. Very small oil needs and it'll do from 400-5xx depending on your nozzle choice and needs. Hell a 250/200 in a "stock" tune is somewhere around 350-400 if i had to guess. And clean clean clean.
Nycowboy picked the right injector in my opinion. For what its worth.
Swaan
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Like I said before.
Sometimes I wish I went with 238/80 hybrids
Thses 175/80 are oil hungry but do run perty good otherwise.......
Mmmmmmmmmm.
Sometimes I wish I went with 238/80 hybrids
Thses 175/80 are oil hungry but do run perty good otherwise.......
Mmmmmmmmmm.
CarportMechanic
New member
Cold motor I can make 3,800 psi all day long.
Once at operating temps 2,800 psi puts me in the 75% duty cycle range at 3.0 MS.
But your 160/30's should not have any issues with a t500. Check your tuning, What is your ICP, Duty cycle and Pule Width. These 3 things can help us determine if you need tuning adjustment. or need to look into other issues.
Plzstrokeme
Member
It may be a while but I will get the info. It has only happened twice and I drive it hard towing but both times I was demanding alot. I may be difficult to find the right circumstances to get it to happen again.
Dont feel bad. I did it too and even bought a bunch of support mods after the fact and it still was about as exhilirating as a stock lml.
Now I've done it twice more. ..hopefully the last time.
mikeeg02
New member
If you have supporting oil, or have them detuned enough they should have better injection pressure. I ALMOST went that way from what I was lead to believe also, then when I requested ICP values and DC from some members I noticed running a similar setup to what I wanted to run, nobody data logged, but said they had no issues , worked great, etc. I'm glad I went with my hybrids.
mikeeg02
New member
Less high pressure oil per CC of fuel.
DZL JIM
Member
Jacob, I run 200/30% with a 38R in my '96. Overall I really like the set-up, but they could be a lot better with better tuning.
I say make it a priority to get the truck live tuned if you will mostly be towing. I can't really tow much without lots of smoke and high egt's, but I have other trucks I can tow with so I never pursued a tuning change.
I say make it a priority to get the truck live tuned if you will mostly be towing. I can't really tow much without lots of smoke and high egt's, but I have other trucks I can tow with so I never pursued a tuning change.
Really? An obs or a sd? A lot of people can drive that setup pretty ok without tuning if they have to wait for tunes.
Who's tuning if you are at liberty to say?
Theres a lot of variables to that question.
BS Hauler
New member
I would like to hear this answer as well. What are the pro's and con's to 175/80's compared to 238/80's hybrids.
mikeeg02
New member
Ultimately in my opinion, that answer needs to come from your injector builder or similar. In my opinion (and I don't have a flow bench to test so these are my observations and understandings, and most of it is in injector theory)
Hybrids
Less HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 5:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)
A codes
Requires additional HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 7:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~21,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but again let's baseline)
That being said, you should only need about 2150 psi HPO to achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)
When I was interested in a similar injector (175/80s), I thought I was planning ahead and doing the T500 and I would be able to support 175/80s, but like I said before, people with similar setups didnt seem to be able to provide hard data showing me a T500 (or adrenaline for that matter) would fully support (and to me that means 2800 psi or better HPO with an A code)
In my opinion, if you dont have enough oil to run 175/80 A codes, you should be able to get a 200/80, 238/80, 250/80 hybrid (lets retain the nozzle size) and detune them to a approximately 175cc, and definitely be able to maintain 3,000 psi + HPO. At which point making the hybrid overall cleaner and more efficient at the same power level. And I cannot understand for the life of me anyone would suggest a 200/80 over a 238/80 or 250/80. Because they are basically the same price, and a 238 or 250 can be tuned to only use ~200 CC or fuel, or even less. One gives you a future if you get the HP bug later, and one gives you a max of ~200cc's of fuel. Maybe thats enough, and maybe that isnt. But I certainly wouldnt suggest such a small hybrid, dollar for dollar. But again, thats MY opinion, and I am certain there is alot about injectors I do NOT know or understand.
There also used to be a lot of talk on injector oil refill time, and maybe we are passed that now. But the A codes require more oil per cc of fuel, so every shot they require a certain amount of time to refill the oil side. If you cannot refill it to its capacity, your 7:1 hydraulic action of that next shot goes to sh!t. This problem would get increasingly noticeable in higher RPMs (less time to refill) and generally this is when HPO is the most demanding on the HPOP (less volume available because all the other injectors want oil too.)
Hybrids
Less HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 5:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)
A codes
Requires additional HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 7:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~21,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but again let's baseline)
That being said, you should only need about 2150 psi HPO to achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)
When I was interested in a similar injector (175/80s), I thought I was planning ahead and doing the T500 and I would be able to support 175/80s, but like I said before, people with similar setups didnt seem to be able to provide hard data showing me a T500 (or adrenaline for that matter) would fully support (and to me that means 2800 psi or better HPO with an A code)
In my opinion, if you dont have enough oil to run 175/80 A codes, you should be able to get a 200/80, 238/80, 250/80 hybrid (lets retain the nozzle size) and detune them to a approximately 175cc, and definitely be able to maintain 3,000 psi + HPO. At which point making the hybrid overall cleaner and more efficient at the same power level. And I cannot understand for the life of me anyone would suggest a 200/80 over a 238/80 or 250/80. Because they are basically the same price, and a 238 or 250 can be tuned to only use ~200 CC or fuel, or even less. One gives you a future if you get the HP bug later, and one gives you a max of ~200cc's of fuel. Maybe thats enough, and maybe that isnt. But I certainly wouldnt suggest such a small hybrid, dollar for dollar. But again, thats MY opinion, and I am certain there is alot about injectors I do NOT know or understand.
There also used to be a lot of talk on injector oil refill time, and maybe we are passed that now. But the A codes require more oil per cc of fuel, so every shot they require a certain amount of time to refill the oil side. If you cannot refill it to its capacity, your 7:1 hydraulic action of that next shot goes to sh!t. This problem would get increasingly noticeable in higher RPMs (less time to refill) and generally this is when HPO is the most demanding on the HPOP (less volume available because all the other injectors want oil too.)
mikeeg02
New member
Theres obviously more to it than that, but hopefully this gets discussion started.
And also, if you have the oil system and injectors are capable of refilling fast enough a similar sized A code should be a better injector than a hybrid as far as HP and efficiency. I do remember Tim from PIS telling me that a 175/80 a code and 200/80 hybrid dyno extremely close to one another. I can only assume that A code driven truck had supporting HPO.
And also, if you have the oil system and injectors are capable of refilling fast enough a similar sized A code should be a better injector than a hybrid as far as HP and efficiency. I do remember Tim from PIS telling me that a 175/80 a code and 200/80 hybrid dyno extremely close to one another. I can only assume that A code driven truck had supporting HPO.
FlatbedCowboy
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This is all news to me, I have been on the 160/30 train for a couple years (saving) but now maybe 238/80s...
What about fuel comparisons or is that even a question? Like will an Frx handle both A codes and 200 hybrids? Or a quad feed line, or is it going to take a regulated return?
What about fuel comparisons or is that even a question? Like will an Frx handle both A codes and 200 hybrids? Or a quad feed line, or is it going to take a regulated return?
