Tow rig setup

psduser1

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This is all news to me, I have been on the 160/30 train for a couple years (saving) but now maybe 238/80s...

What about fuel comparisons or is that even a question? Like will an Frx handle both A codes and 200 hybrids? Or a quad feed line, or is it going to take a regulated return?
Imo, a full regulated return will be better as hp goes up.
Having said that, I know several people have run bone stock 7.3s to we'll over 300k with no adverse affects.
Yet to meet the guy with 200k on a 500hp or up Truck.
Different applications call for different setups.
I don't know of any downsides to a rr, aside from initial cost.
 

mikeeg02

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What about fuel comparisons or is that even a question? Like will an Frx handle both A codes and 200 hybrids? Or a quad feed line, or is it going to take a regulated return?

That's another complicated question with several other requirements to it. That being said . I have the in tank stuff and filters done, and FRX, upgraded fuel line to the bowl, bowl mods, and an in cab fuel psi gauge and with 238/100s it will hold ~40 psi at 3.0 ms pulse width, high rpm . Your results may vary.
 

cjfarm111

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40 psi seems very low does it not? I was told you need 60-65psi to operate efficiently and keep your injectors alive?
 

mikeeg02

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That's optimal. And I agree. I ordered a second fuel pump to parallel and hold fuel psi better. But most injector builders want to see a minimum of 40 psi.

That was with one OEM pump, and 238/100 injectors. So the FRX did well I MO. The restriction now becomes the factory supply lines to the heads.
 

cjfarm111

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Yeah I'm running the strictly diesel regulated return and Irates pump and holds 65 all day long. But back to the injector topic. Very interesting read
 

TyCorr

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Ultimately in my opinion, that answer needs to come from your injector builder or similar. In my opinion (and I don't have a flow bench to test so these are my observations and understandings, and most of it is in injector theory)

Hybrids
Less HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 5:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)

A codes
Requires additional HPO per cc fuel
If you can maintain 3,000 psi HPO (at a 7:1 hydraulic ratio) you achieve ~21,000 psi injection pressure. (There are several other factors that go into that, but again let's baseline)
That being said, you should only need about 2150 psi HPO to achieve ~15,000 psi injection pressure (There are several other factors that go into that, but let's baseline)

When I was interested in a similar injector (175/80s), I thought I was planning ahead and doing the T500 and I would be able to support 175/80s, but like I said before, people with similar setups didnt seem to be able to provide hard data showing me a T500 (or adrenaline for that matter) would fully support (and to me that means 2800 psi or better HPO with an A code)

In my opinion, if you dont have enough oil to run 175/80 A codes, you should be able to get a 200/80, 238/80, 250/80 hybrid (lets retain the nozzle size) and detune them to a approximately 175cc, and definitely be able to maintain 3,000 psi + HPO. At which point making the hybrid overall cleaner and more efficient at the same power level. And I cannot understand for the life of me anyone would suggest a 200/80 over a 238/80 or 250/80. Because they are basically the same price, and a 238 or 250 can be tuned to only use ~200 CC or fuel, or even less. One gives you a future if you get the HP bug later, and one gives you a max of ~200cc's of fuel. Maybe thats enough, and maybe that isnt. But I certainly wouldnt suggest such a small hybrid, dollar for dollar. But again, thats MY opinion, and I am certain there is alot about injectors I do NOT know or understand.

There also used to be a lot of talk on injector oil refill time, and maybe we are passed that now. But the A codes require more oil per cc of fuel, so every shot they require a certain amount of time to refill the oil side. If you cannot refill it to its capacity, your 7:1 hydraulic action of that next shot goes to sh!t. This problem would get increasingly noticeable in higher RPMs (less time to refill) and generally this is when HPO is the most demanding on the HPOP (less volume available because all the other injectors want oil too.)


Your theory parts are right but injectors dont always work that way. The pressure loss across each a code injector is greater each time that oil side is actuated that in a demand situation icp falls unless the tuning is mindful of pw and icp. This is why hybrids win. Fuel over time wins no matter the scenario. And as icp falls in that a code pressure at the nozzle keeps falling until its not atomizing worth a shti and you have a hot, smoky truck that can't get out of its way. They hybrid is king at delivering fuel quicker. Especially with a 200% nozzle. But that is negating the tuning aspect which is relevant in this thread so we wont go there. Its been beaten to death. Ad nauseum.

That brings me to the 200cc hybrid. A 200cc hybrid isnt the same as a 238 or 250. 238 is the size that injectorfamily begins at. 200 is a different animal. And as such while enjoying hydraulic advantage it also uses much less hpo than ac code injector or an ad code (stock). A 200cc injector will run on a 15° pump. A 238 or 250 will but the pump may need to be accomodated in the tuning. So for towing on a truck the 200 is great because even if your 17 is in its middle years you've got no issues with icp. A 250 uses about the same amount of oil as an ad code. So its possible to have issues if your 17 is a bit ragged. A healthy 17 should feed a 250 for the most part depending on your tuners knowledge. 200s definitely gave their place at the table.
 

mikeeg02

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So when tuning for approximately 200cc of fuel, how is it possible for the 238-250 bodied injector to use more HPO than the 200? Or let's say we're tuning for ~180cc of fuel? Lets not plan on using thr full capability of the injector. While I know that equivilates to a certain HP, we'll use cc's of fuel for simplicity.
 

superpsd

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I'll just keep my B codes. You all can play with your hybrids. I had always read that a 238cc hybrid was an uncut hybrid as in there is no machining needed to the AC code IP just a BD code P&B. Not sure how a 200 is made. Probably a cut AA code piston but no builder is going to chime in....it's all secret stuff. :blah:
 
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ja_cain

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Like I've said before, my understanding is that the nozzle is generally the restriction. If both injectors have the same injection ratio and "fast" mods, then they will flow the same amount of fuel at any given icp and pw assuming you aren't outside the smaller injectors cc capacity. I'm going to assume a 200cc hybrid is just destroked somehow? Here is a great thread put together by HRT with citations and comments from other experts.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21111

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ja_cain

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I'll just keep my B codes. You all can play with your hybrids. I had always read that a 238cc hybrid was an uncut hybrid as in there is no machining needed to the AC code IP just a BD code P&B. Not sure how a 200 is made. Probably a cut AA code piston but no builder is going to chime in....it's all secret stuff. :blah:

That would make sense to me. Shorter stroke, so less cc capacity.

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DZL JIM

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That brings me to the 200cc hybrid. A 200cc hybrid isnt the same as a 238 or 250. 238 is the size that injectorfamily begins at. 200 is a different animal. And as such while enjoying hydraulic advantage it also uses much less hpo than ac code injector or an ad code (stock). A 200cc injector will run on a 15° pump. A 238 or 250 will but the pump may need to be accomodated in the tuning. So for towing on a truck the 200 is great because even if your 17 is in its middle years you've got no issues with icp. A 250 uses about the same amount of oil as an ad code. So its possible to have issues if your 17 is a bit ragged. A healthy 17 should feed a 250 for the most part depending on your tuners knowledge. 200s definitely gave their place at the table.

I am not sure you understand exactly what you are trying to say.
The 200 is not "in a different family" as you put it. There is no hydraulic advantage.
A Hybrid is a Hybrid. It doesn't matter if it's 200 cc or 350 cc. Both will run just fine on a stock 15° HPOP, if that's what you want to do.
The bigger question is the nozzle size. The larger the nozzle the more oil needed to fully utilize that injector, mostly because you will want more hp out of the larger injector anyway.
I personally don't see any reason to put a 100% nozzle on a 200 cc Hybrid set, or put a 30% nozzle on a 300 cc Hybrid set. You need to balance them based on your hp goals, what HPOP you will run, and what turbo you will have.

A sound reasoning for deciding injector size should always be based on your turbo, HPOP, and hp goals (which is somewhat related to how you use the truck.)
There's no point having 250/100% Hybrids if you are only ever going to run a 38R.
And there's no point running 160/80% if you have a huge S47X T4 turbo and want to tow your 5'er.
 

cjfarm111

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Well put. I agree with that. I might have to try a different hpop setup to see if my icp will hold better
 

superpsd

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A hybrid will inject more fuel per given stroke as said above than an A code with the 6.0mm plunger. So take a 175cc A code a larger nozzle say 200%. Then take a 250cc hybrid with 200% nozzle. Both injectors are going to actuate faster due to the reduced restriction. Now on a derated tune that's only calling for a maximum PW to dump say no more than 140cc of fuel. The A code now stroking faster has to stroke much further to inject its 140cc vs the hybrid which of course does not have to stroke that far. The pressure drop above the IP is going to be much less due to the limited shorter stroke. The only downfall to a hybrid is a reduced hydraulic ratio but can be compensated for in the tuning. The hybrids got a bad rap it seems in the past for being Smokey hybrids but I'm willing to bet a lot of those injectors were fine but we're lacking proper tuning to make them perform. The biggest hurdle with hybrids is they cost more up front and tuning is more critical to maintain drivability and smoke control.

If I had another 7.3 I would love to take my AA codes and turn them into some hybrids using the larger BI code P&B spill port welded. And retain the B code nozzle springs to improve atomization for a daily driven road warrior.

Also if one had unlimited pockets experimenting with custom P&Be would be fun something maybe in the middle like a 6.5mm plunger. Would likely be a waste of time and machining however.
 
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TyCorr

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A 238 is what you just said superpsd. A 200 isnt the same parts. Hence my comment. We're on the same page.

And yet another 0ost about how a 38r is only good for a tiny njector with a 30% nozzle.

Welcome back to 2008.
 

Dirtclod

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I'm looking to upgrade my injectors in the future since mine has 260k miles on them. At the moment they're doing great but won't last forever. I've been noticing lately people talking about cooling issues running bigger injectors. I've done the fuel system to mine and planning on a t4 setup cause I'm going to upgrade all piping anyways. Definitely going to have my piping and turbo ceramic coated and come even wrapped. Now I'm looking at custom radiators for more volume. I'm planning on going with a good tuning guy like ones mentioned in this thread and take his word for it. 230/80's aftermarket hpop of his choice for volume s369 1.0 ar and his tuning. If egt's are going to periodically get to & above a1000 degrees I'll pull pistons and have the ceramic coated with studs installed for the heads. Why not? Capable of over 500hp so might as well get the $ worth.
Imo, select the tuning guy and go with what injector and setup that he's good at tuning.
 

Vader's Fury

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Should be no cooling issues because of larger injectors. Not if set up properly. The cooling system on these trucks is over the top in performance.
 

DZL JIM

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A 238 is what you just said superpsd. A 200 isnt the same parts. Hence my comment. We're on the same page.

And yet another 0ost about how a 38r is only good for a tiny njector with a 30% nozzle.

Welcome back to 2008.

Please enlighten us as to how a 200 cc Hybrid doesn't use the same parts as a 238 cc Hybrid?
You didn't mention nozzle size at all, and I am sure you are not referring to the length of the IP since that has no relevance to what you are talking about.
 

NyCowboy87

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Yup got them in last night, drove it to work empty today and so far so good. I have to play around with the wastegate though boost is a little low and in the hotter tunes it smokes pretty good. Lower tunes seem ok as far as smoke and temps go. It definitely woke the truck up, seems like the charger lights and ah shi t time to shift lol. Definitely not as fun as a truck with a built auto.


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