Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[ja_cain]

Si

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Where are you from. Can't see your location through tapacrap.

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[jcain]

From SC. Raised in Vegas. Live in KC.

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[jaybuller]

The way I see it PIS is not pushing more than a 30% nozzel on a 160cc stick..... The 30% does a good job as is on a small stick why mess with it...If he was trying to sell a 200% nozzle he would be doing it on a 200+ cc injector. He has nothing to gain by selling 160/30 sticks over the more expensive (see more profit) bigger tipped sticks. If he were selling every Joe Shmoe 200% nozzles there would be a lot of trucks with windowed blocks and blown head gaskets out there. Plus tons of melted Down stock 4R converters and trannys. It's too easy for folks out there ask for the "big tune" without the proper supporting mods.

I run 160/30 sticks for the sole reason they were cheap and a good step up from stock. On a side note I do plan on 250/200 next but I've got a lot of stuff I want to do first like studs full rr and a dual disc. But I also want to push more than my current 375ish hp.... And for the record my 160/30 sticks smoke out the niehborhood on cold starts way more than these videos I see you folks posting of your 200% idle haze.

 

[psduser1]

I've got a zf6 with that pcm. Ultimately, I would be happy with 350 to 400 smoke free hp at the wheels. The zf6 should be fine at that power level with the appropriate clutch. I even remember Charles saying that a while back. He's more of a power junky than I am, so I can understand his frustration. He also tows way more than I do or probably ever will. If not, I'll just do what he did and switch to an auto with the pcs.

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A zf will be fine at 400 hp....
For a while. Unless you actually load it and use 400 hp. Then it'll be a short while, lol. Mine at 40k ish already starting to grumble. The clutch isn't a problem, there are plenty of options out there.

You still can not get it through your thick skull.

Make sure you read this slowly at least 4 times and let it sink in.

More than half the people that call looking for injectors have a stock hpop, stock turbo, no fuel system, get the idea yet??? So they are looking for fuel capacity in the 160-175cc range, the tinniest sliver might even entertain a 200 hybrid (not because of capacity but because of design and the ability to use nothing more than a stock hpop).

Now why in the world would these people need a 200% nozzle, because you on your soap box is telling them they are idiots if they don't run them on their truck. That's exactly what they get out of threads like this because that's exactly where they say they have read it. And exactly like I said before if everyone knew how to do their own tuning then great they could make it work just fine for them, but guess what only a small percentage of people first of even know who tunes for these much less could even care to try it themselves. You are smart enough to figure out just how much PW is required to empty 160-175cc of fuel with a 200% injector I would think. But then again maybe you don't know how fast a properly setup injector is, maybe that's the issue.

Now again, tell me why they need a 200% nozzle?? Because in their mind they should be running either an AD/200, 160/200 or a 175/200, thanks to threads that have gone stray like this one. As the title actually says (I know because it was my thread) why you don't even need a 100% on an injector as small as 160cc.

If anyone wants to ask a "TUNER" about smaller nozzles and their ability I would tell them talk to Matt (gear-head) because I know for a fact he has seen what a simple little 80% can do. t wasn't by accident we have had customers drop their 250cc injectors for our 175's and be much happier and also claim their truck felt much stronger.

We have built every single injector for a purpose. Each has a window of operation that correlates to a task the user calls and wants to fill. Not a single person has called wanting to be able to inject sub 200cc in less than 2MS, not a single one EVER. I'm guessing because you haven't told them they need to yet.

No matter what capacity injector, shorter injection times equals cleaner exhaust, and cleaner power. The only way to accomplish that is a better flowing/bigger nozzle.
With accurate tuning, of course.
Ford really shortchanged it's customers by setting the hp bar where they did back in the 90s. Course, it beat the competition at the time, so that was good enough. Unfortunately, the side effect has been that 7.3 owners start from low expectations, which have been happily met for twenty years by shops/vendors who based their upgrades on factory junk, rather than actual engineering.
I've often wished the guy that built my "perfect " injector also had time to write the perfect tunes for that injector.
I'd agree with your post, jaybuller, because I bought 160/100s for the same reason. I didn't know what I didn't know.
The sales model says, you're buying more performance with the bigger nozzle, therefore the price must be higher.
A better educated consumer is really an advantage to a performance oriented business.

 

[gnxtc2]

You still can not get it through your thick skull.

Make sure you read this slowly at least 4 times and let it sink in.

More than half the people that call looking for injectors have a stock hpop, stock turbo, no fuel system, get the idea yet??? So they are looking for fuel capacity in the 160-175cc range, the tinniest sliver might even entertain a 200 hybrid (not because of capacity but because of design and the ability to use nothing more than a stock hpop).

Now why in the world would these people need a 200% nozzle, because you on your soap box is telling them they are idiots if they don't run them on their truck. That's exactly what they get out of threads like this because that's exactly where they say they have read it. And exactly like I said before if everyone knew how to do their own tuning then great they could make it work just fine for them, but guess what only a small percentage of people first of even know who tunes for these much less could even care to try it themselves. You are smart enough to figure out just how much PW is required to empty 160-175cc of fuel with a 200% injector I would think. But then again maybe you don't know how fast a properly setup injector is, maybe that's the issue.

Now again, tell me why they need a 200% nozzle?? Because in their mind they should be running either an AD/200, 160/200 or a 175/200, thanks to threads that have gone stray like this one. As the title actually says (I know because it was my thread) why you don't even need a 100% on an injector as small as 160cc.

If anyone wants to ask a "TUNER" about smaller nozzles and their ability I would tell them talk to Matt (gear-head) because I know for a fact he has seen what a simple little 80% can do. t wasn't by accident we have had customers drop their 250cc injectors for our 175's and be much happier and also claim their truck felt much stronger.

We have built every single injector for a purpose. Each has a window of operation that correlates to a task the user calls and wants to fill. Not a single person has called wanting to be able to inject sub 200cc in less than 2MS, not a single one EVER. I'm guessing because you haven't told them they need to yet.

How hard is it to tell them you don't know how to help them and if they want to rock out with a 200% nozzle they need to call someone else? Then just hang up the phone. If that's too complex, then just hang up the phone straight away.

You having awkward phone conversations where you have to try and skirt the fact that you don't inow what you're doing enough to have a decent nozzle perform as it should is a you problem, not a nozzle problem.

Stop confusing your deficiencies for those of the nozzle. Learn how to stop giving advice to people asking about things you don't understand yet. Just hang up the phone. They may move on to someone who can help them.

Again, running a little bitty 200% nozzle clean and crisp on an otherwise stock truck does not require anything from you. You are not an integral part of the equation. If you disappeared right now my truck would never notice.

I'm sorry you were the OP. Thankfully that deby downer attitude seems to be dying with you and Jim. Maybe we should cut the second half of the thread away so that the climb to the future doesn't have to be nagatively impacted by the likes of people like you who just want to push the controls back into a dive all the time.

If you will notice file sharing had already started, and we were starting to discuss a file storage area for ptp tuning to grow.

If you could just hang up the phone and keep your blinders focused on stock 7 holers for a while, the rest of us might handle this FOR you and yours!

And I don't even charge money!

What Tim is trying to say that not everyone needs a 200% injector. Most of his customers have a stock motor (no big oil, no big fuel pumps, no big turbos, etc, etc) and just want some extra HP. When I got my injectors from Tim, he asked what my build was and what I was looking for. He sold me an injector that fit my needs.

Charles, what you are doing is live tuning your truck. Not everyone has the programs, equipment and knowledge to live tune. If you spend enough time live tuning, you'll get it perfected. The way I'm reading your posts, that a 200% nozzle belongs on every injector but I can be wrong.

I do electrical work, it's like a person that needs an electrical service upgrade to their 1000' sq ft. home which consists of a few light fixtures and appliances. I could sell them a three phase, 1200A service for their 30A load. The 1200A service will work but it's way overkill.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[Jomax]

No, mine's a 6spd auto.

Not helping lol


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[Charles]

What Tim is trying to say that not everyone needs a 200% injector. Most of his customers have a stock motor (no big oil, no big fuel pumps, no big turbos, etc, etc) and just want some extra HP. When I got my injectors from Tim, he asked what my build was and what I was looking for. He sold me an injector that fit my needs.

Charles, what you are doing is live tuning your truck. Not everyone has the programs, equipment and knowledge to live tune. If you spend enough time live tuning, you'll get it perfected. The way I'm reading your posts, that a 200% nozzle belongs on every injector but I can be wrong.

I do electrical work, it's like a person that needs an electrical service upgrade to their 1000' sq ft. home which consists of a few light fixtures and appliances. I could sell them a three phase, 1200A service for their 30A load. The 1200A service will work but it's way overkill.

Billy T.
[email protected]

My crew cab has stock everything except a dirty open air filter, 4" downpipe and a drop in 38r with a 1.15 housing only because the stock charger surged so bad.

At say 375 hp a 200 will be cleaner and cooler. The truck will probably make power over a broader range as well. When's the last time you saw somebody running a 30% eh pulling a loaded trailer uphill in OD at 1600 rpm with no smoke? When's the last time you saw a 30% eh pulling a loaded trailer uphill at 1600 rpm with smoke for that matter?

The burn efficiency just isn't there. The power's not there even if you didn't care what the egt or smoke was.


On Edit:

I forgot to address your analogy. For your above 30A service, lets say the pull is 500 feet long. A 30% nozzle would be akin to running a 10ga wire because a 10ga wire is rated for a 30A load in the NEC. I'm the guy telling you that if you run an 8ga wire on that pull, even though the 10-3 can do the job, the 8-3 will have far less voltage drop, run all your loads more efficiently and run cooler while doing both. A 200 is far from overkill. You don't get the same performance, you get much better performance and efficiency at a point between 2 and 300rwhp depending on usage. The heavier you load the engine up, the less attractive the smaller nozzle becomes.

 

[gnxtc2]

Does this count....I'm pulling 21k up a hill at 1850 with an 80% in OD with the cruise on, don't know if my nozzles are eh or edm with no smoke.

But your truck is not taking full advantage of a 200% injector. You are detuning the injector. The major player here is live tuning.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[Charles]

Does this count....I'm pulling 21k up a hill at 1850 with an 80% in OD with the cruise on, don't know if my nozzles are eh or edm with no smoke.

But your truck is not taking full advantage of a 200% injector. You are detuning the injector. The major player here is live tuning.

Billy T.
[email protected]

The first program I wrote I had never written a single program for an AEB PCM. I had to set all the scalers on all the maps and simply set the map values to points that made sense, sight unseen. The truck ran great. As it turns out, pw is pw and icp is icp.

Only problem with that program was that I had way too much power for a stock trans and PMR, and I had left the icp a bit steep off idle and it would romp on a cold start for a minute when it was cold outside and the MFD got up onto the steep part of the map. Neither of which needed live tuning, both issues would have been the same on any other truck running that injector on a stock engine. On the flip side, the program I'm running now would run down the road clean and strong on any truck running a 200 nozzled hybrid on a stock engine. If there was something really weird with an oil system you might need to change something there, but.... in my experience.... NO. The same programs I ran on my red truck with 400/400's on a single stock 15 degree OBS pump run great with a BTS dual pump or a Gen 3.

Drama queens would like you to think things are more complicated than they are. If your program's F'ed up, then yes. It will vary depending on the hardware you pair it with. If the program's calling for logical values and not depending on the hardware to max out to mask issues, then no, it will not struggle with hardware changes.

If you set your indoor thermostat to 120 degrees with a 3 Ton unit in a large house you're probably not going to have any issues. Now if you install two 5 Ton units because you'd like it to be a bit warmer then yeah...... bingo..... you're gonna have a hard time. Instead of blaming the two nice HVAC units you just installed that are way more efficient than the pos 3 Ton trying to heat that whole house, why not just try setting the T-stat at 68???

If you call for dumb pulsewidth a 30% nozzle will mask that. And when you up the nozzle size to something that does what it's told like a 200, you'll be found out. Smoky pile of fail.

Maybe just fix the file, and let the more efficient nozzle do its job.

 

[gnxtc2]

The first program I wrote I had never written a single program for an AEB PCM. I had to set all the scalers on all the maps and simply set the map values to points that made sense, sight unseen. The truck ran great. As it turns out, pw is pw and icp is icp.

Only problem with that program was that I had way too much power for a stock trans and PMR, and I had left the icp a bit steep off idle and it would romp on a cold start for a minute when it was cold outside and the MFD got up onto the steep part of the map. Neither of which needed live tuning, both issues would have been the same on any other truck running that injector on a stock engine. On the flip side, the program I'm running now would run down the road clean and strong on any truck running a 200 nozzled hybrid on a stock engine. If there was something really weird with an oil system you might need to change something there, but.... in my experience.... NO. The same programs I ran on my red truck with 400/400's on a single stock 15 degree OBS pump run great with a BTS dual pump or a Gen 3.

Who is/was changing the programs?

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[lincolnlocker]

No, mine's a 6spd auto.

lol. mistaken identity.. he ment ja_cain.. wich im sure you figured it out..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[m j]

the flip side question has to be 'why would I want to run a long pulsewidth that a small nozzle will require to get fuel in the motor?'
the bigger nozzle allows placing the fuel when it should be placed rather then fogging it in for 5ms and hoping it makes some power.

I want to know what tuners are still calling for that kind of pulsewidth so I can avoid them.

my PCM has an edge tune flashed on it so I can easily see what 5ms does with 200 nozzles by bypassing the GH tunes

 

[TyCorr]

But your truck is not taking full advantage of a 200% injector. You are detuning the injector. The major player here is live tuning.

Billy T.
[email protected]

You could do that on a stock truck with a 200% nozzle...

My tow tune is conservative and i ran it with no studs or springs and it runs cool...like 1000 degrees cool.

 

[Jomax]

lol. mistaken identity.. he ment ja_cain.. wich im sure you figured it out..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

LOL I did, didn't know there was a Jcain


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[Tim @ P.I.S.]

the flip side question has to be 'why would I want to run a long pulsewidth that a small nozzle will require to get fuel in the motor?'
the bigger nozzle allows placing the fuel when it should be placed rather then fogging it in for 5ms and hoping it makes some power.

I want to know what tuners are still calling for that kind of pulsewidth so I can avoid them.

my PCM has an edge tune flashed on it so I can easily see what 5ms does with 200 nozzles by bypassing the GH tunes

Unfortunately a lot still do. I have seen it first hand. All you need is a scanner to watch it.

Here's your issue, can anyone buy a set of 300/200's and run in there stock truck and tow a house? Sure they can. But your tuner will hate you and you just spent nearly twice as much on a set of injectors that do the same exact thing you want to do. Any tuner will tell you, as several have told me it's easier to tune an injector that needs say 3 ms to completely empty verses one that needs 2ms. The shorter the people the more work is going to be required to get the best outcome. Most control fuel with pw. Once your injection window is so little it will be harder to control. Fortunately for years many injectors took for ever to fully empty. That made it easy to tune. I couldn't tell you how many sets of 250/100's we have sent to us to go through because people just are not happy with the outcome. Many many sets we run on the bench and have to run at 5ms to get all to empty 250cc.

No lets throw another wrench into this equation. Two injector companies make the same size injector but have completely different flow rates at various Rpms. How do you think that's going to play into your tuners efforts? We designed our own version of injectors that some tuners saw first hand they had to make several adjustments too and couldn't figure out why. The flow bench gave them the answers they needed. In the past they were tuning for say a 250cc injector that they thought was actually giving them 250cc. Wrong, once they started getting 250cc they had to go back and adjust for it.

That is just another thing that makes tuning not so easy. Fortunately you have companies that have worked with tuners for years to be able to package together options to do just what you want to do.

So the consumer has options. Buy a set of injectors that WILL do what you want and get a tune that has been proven to work and do what you want 1,000 times or buy twice the injector (size and $$$) you need and spend possibly months with tuning revisions to get where you want to be because it is a combo of parts a tuner isn't familiar with, Your choice.

 

[Jomax]

Does this count....I'm pulling 21k up a hill at 1850 with an 80% in OD with the cruise on, don't know if my nozzles are eh or edm with no smoke.

But your truck is not taking full advantage of a 200% injector. You are detuning the injector. The major player here is live tuning.

Billy T.
[email protected]

But the point is, you never want to run anything at full tilt. Run them at 50% capacity, and it'll run good and efficiently .


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[m j]

third option. buy a set of 300/200 and buy GH tunes with no revisions = profit.
that list of tuners to avoid would be handy.

 

[Jomax]

Biggest fail, I always though jcain and ja-Cain were the same person... Never caught the a.

I always wondered why sometimes he'd come out as a super nice guy and sometimes not... Lol


And ways though why he got a 7.3 and was selling his built 6.7 LOL




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[dsberman94]

.

So what tuner would you recommend to do tuning for injectors you build? I'm not running any injectors as big as we're talking about in here, just curious who tuned your injectors best in your experience.

 

[TyCorr]

So what tuner would you recommend to do tuning for injectors you build? I'm not running any injectors as big as we're talking about in here, just curious who tuned your injectors best in your experience.

If gh cant tune that how you want it, send those injectors back and have them inspected.