Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[Charles]

Anywho........

Back before Tim owned an injector shop I played with VOP a bit for a while and raising the VOP definitely made the injectors much, much crisper and cleaner. The truck sounded very clean and strong as well. I unfortunately lost notable power on the dyno with higher VOP...

Unfortunately, I don't remember picking up power by lowering it below stock. Since I didn't care about running clean and strong as much as making power, I think we left the VOP alone. But it was tested, by me if nobody else.

I watched Stuckey pick up around 250hp at the wheels on dunbars one day by doing nothing but lowering VOP.

At this point in my life I might raise it again. The truck definitely ran more uniform and cleaner. Needed more pw for the same power. All things that a larger nozzle might actually like in a reduced power situation when compared to running a nozzle FLAT OUT all the time.

Anyway, it occurred to me and I thought I should toss it out there. I will definitely be thinking about another round of testing.

 

[IHPowerstroke7.3]

I find it funny how some people here are getting butt hurt over people discussing their software/ hardware, beating their chest like they are #1 and their stuff is better than everyone's and no one else has a clue. Yet the same people getting butt hurt are the ones telling everyone else their hardware/software is inferior.
The fact is, we have barely any proof of what is better than what in any real world situations. We have some word of mouth, couple dyno sheets and some videos. Arguing over an injection system that hasn't been in production for over ten years. It was already stated and let's get serious for a moment. You could make a heui injector as "fast" as you want, it will still be slower than the first common rail injector that came to market. Heck, injectors in a 6.7 can fire up to seven times in a stroke. Bosch pretty much rules the market now, gas and diesel respectively. Are they the best? Maybe not. But obviously they have a lot more "yes we can" people working there, and that's how they progressed and took the lead. That's a company with probably billions of dollars and years of experience behind them.
Point is, the man power and dollar figure being spent on the 7.3 performance world is tiny. Many people have their hands on a slice of the pie, there is no "monoply" to be had here. The whole point of this thread was to get the "yes we can" people together to keep it going. There has been some great info being shared here. I think if everyone can dial back the chest beating a little, it will be a win/ win for the people that still care to improve on these old gems. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

I find it funny how some people here are getting butt hurt over people discussing their software/ hardware, beating their chest like they are #1 and their stuff is better than everyone's and no one else has a clue. Yet the same people getting butt hurt are the ones telling everyone else their hardware/software is inferior.
The fact is, we have barely any proof of what is better than what in any real world situations. We have some word of mouth, couple dyno sheets and some videos. Arguing over an injection system that hasn't been in production for over ten years. It was already stated and let's get serious for a moment. You could make a heui injector as "fast" as you want, it will still be slower than the first common rail injector that came to market. Heck, injectors in a 6.7 can fire up to seven times in a stroke. Bosch pretty much rules the market now, gas and diesel respectively. Are they the best? Maybe not. But obviously they have a lot more "yes we can" people working there, and that's how they progressed and took the lead. That's a company with probably billions of dollars and years of experience behind them.
Point is, the man power and dollar figure being spent on the 7.3 performance world is tiny. Many people have their hands on a slice of the pie, there is no "monoply" to be had here. The whole point of this thread was to get the "yes we can" people together to keep it going. There has been some great info being shared here. I think if everyone can dial back the chest beating a little, it will be a win/ win for the people that still care to improve on these old gems. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

And this is why I get messages wanting me to tell people how to build their own injectors. They haven't spent 10+ years of their life developing something, but expect me to hand over my notebooks full of info I have collected. The people that know are not going to come on here and just unload their secretes.

But some do make an attempt to help point you in the right direction and save you from spending hours/days/years looking in all the wrong places. But then again they are just chastised in the end so I don't blame them for withholding.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Anywho........

Back before Tim owned an injector shop I played with VOP a bit for a while and raising the VOP definitely made the injectors much, much crisper and cleaner. The truck sounded very clean and strong as well. I unfortunately lost notable power on the dyno with higher VOP...

Unfortunately, I don't remember picking up power by lowering it below stock. Since I didn't care about running clean and strong as much as making power, I think we left the VOP alone. But it was tested, by me if nobody else.

I watched Stuckey pick up around 250hp at the wheels on dunbars one day by doing nothing but lowering VOP.

At this point in my life I might raise it again. The truck definitely ran more uniform and cleaner. Needed more pw for the same power. All things that a larger nozzle might actually like in a reduced power situation when compared to running a nozzle FLAT OUT all the time.

Anyway, it occurred to me and I thought I should toss it out there. I will definitely be thinking about another round of testing.

VOP is a function of all types of injectors we use, not just HEUI.

If you don't understand why it affects those things then back up and start over with the basics. You don't jump in the deep end of the pool before you understand what a floaty is.

 

[IHPowerstroke7.3]

I respect the fact you may have ten years of experience in the heui injector world, and anyone would be stupid to give away all of their "secrets". You may have more business than you can handle, maybe you don't need to sell large nozzles injectors. But you must advertise them for a reason. Not to blow up your ego, but I've seen lots of positive posts commenting on your 300/200's. Someone must be out there tuning them. You're not in th tuning business, but you are in injector sales. Better tuning for larger nozzles = more injector sales. So why be Mr. Negative when the progress of this thread could be adding more to your pockets?

 

[mandkole]

Well said..

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Regardless of what some people in here post up I LOVE the 200% nozzles. We have done tons of 300/200's I personally like even more how are A code 225/200's run.

I personally love what you guys are doing. I have no problem helping point you in the right direction. I have spent countless hours trying to get tuners to understand what I wanted them to do for our product. I hope you guys do pull through with this. I do not commercially offer tuning, just not enough time in the day for me personally. But, doesn't mean I am not working on my own in my spare time so I don't want to show my hand just yet. Good luck and I'm here for feed back on some things.

 

[Jomax]

Regardless of what some people in here post up I LOVE the 200% nozzles. We have done tons of 300/200's I personally like even more how are A code 225/200's run.



I personally love what you guys are doing. I have no problem helping point you in the right direction. I have spent countless hours trying to get tuners to understand what I wanted them to do for our product. I hope you guys do pull through with this. I do not commercially offer tuning, just not enough time in the day for me personally. But, doesn't mean I am not working on my own in my spare time so I don't want to show my hand just yet. Good luck and I'm here for feed back on some things.

Why 225/200% A codes?? Are they oil hungry?


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[Charles]

VOP is a function of all types of injectors we use, not just HEUI.

If you don't understand why it affects those things then back up and start over with the basics. You don't jump in the deep end of the pool before you understand what a floaty is.

It would be hard to combine more prick, arrogance and ignorance into a human cocktail if we tried to best your combo man.

Cody has a set of injectors that run and sound (what reminded me) like a couple sets I ran with purposefully higher VOP (I believe international might have had higher VOP STOCK.... but I can't recall, as I said, it's been longer ago than you've even been dicking with injectors period). He also stated that his injectors had more delay than most.

It seemed a logical point to ask what his VOP actually was, in case it actually was on the high side, or..... actually set higher on purpose.


Then you come in with the sh*t attitude again..... offering nothing but bs, telling us that altering the VOP would be useless, and that you were pretty sure nobody was altering that.

So I tell you that not only did I purposefully alter it, but that I saw noticeable changes to driving characteristics as well as actual rwhp. I also stated to have seen Stuckey pull around 250rwhp additional with nothing but a VOP setting change on Dunbar's one day.

Then you make a statement apparently alerting me that VOP plays a role for injectors other than HEUI????? What??? No sh*t sherlock. For God's sake, I literally made a reference to a mechanical 5.9 IN the damn post of mine you quoted when I said it picked up around 250hp with a VOP change! Get a clue.

You must not even know who Stuckey is. Which again brings us back to the ignorant part of your dickhead cocktail where you can somehow tell us all about X,Y and Z and how you've done it all and been doing it forever, yet you don't even seem to know who the hell someone like Stuckey is!!! It's because you don't know sh*t about sh*t and you started playing with injectors after most of us already forgot how to care about the bs you're dicking with now because it didn't make power!

Who the hell are you? I mean literally. I meant to try to call around the other day but keep forgetting to, but where did you come from and when? I don't know how much of this uppity johnny-come-lately prick attitude we are supposed to have to endure. Are you the Tim guy I called about some nozzles maybe 6 or 7 years ago? Nozzle Tim? The guy doing nozzles??? Now you decided to stick some injectors together and we can't hear the end of it, yet you simultaneously tell us about how everything doesn't work, run right or have any consistency from one truck to the next??? It's the most absurd, confusing *** show I've seen in a while. Course I haven't been on a diesel forum in a while, so maybe that explains the lack of DA conversations until recently.


Who the hell are you? Did you start out making some nozzles???

Trying to figure out who the new boy is and where the attitude got all F'ed up and upside down.

It would be nice to talk about an injector in a tuning thread without you writing dipsh*t comments. Vop changes would be useless..... lol.

Then you tell me about how if I don't understand why the VOP alterations change things that I should stay out of the deep end, haha.

So are they useless, or do they change things DA?

Geez.


Can you just learn to hang up the phone when anybody wants anything more risky than an AD?

That sure would simplify everyone else's life.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

I gave up on that post after the second sentence. If you would ever read what I post instead of raging off a like a huge idiot you might actually learn something. Enjoy your thread boys

 

[Charles]

If only we were so lucky.

 

[V-Ref]

If you would ever read what I post instead of raging off a like a huge idiot you might actually learn something.

I agree with you.. We all have learned a lot from your posts.

Now looking forward to the tuning thread!

 

[N2GN2]

i hope they are not the "SHO" mods. If so save your money.

I'm adding an oil feed to the popet valve and enlarging the path to the IP.

 

[Charles]

I'm adding an oil feed to the popet valve and enlarging the path to the IP.

A buddy of mine and I modeled an entire Heui injector in solidworks back in ~02. We then imported the model into an add on program at the time called Fluidworks or something similar where it would run flow simulations on the model.

The ports coming to the poppet were green until right before the poppet where they were lightly yellow, basically still green. The area under the poppet valve was also green. The area at the injector nozzle pintle seat was bright red, and the area across the poppet valve itself was also orange.

The restriction was across the poppet, not to or from it. Always has been, always will be the poppet. If you put a spool valve similar to a 6.0, you could pick up tons of rotella flow. But then you'd have a pos injector like a 6.0 has for reliability and maintenance.

 

[N2GN2]

...I played with VOP a bit for a while and raising the VOP definitely made the injectors much, much crisper and cleaner. The truck sounded very clean and strong as well. I unfortunately lost notable power on the dyno with higher VOP.

Did you use B-code nozzle springs?

When I was in school a mechanical engineering major and I modeled an entire Heui injector in solidworks back in ~02. We then imported the model into an add on program at the time called Fluidworks or something similar where it would run flow simulations on the model.

The ports coming to the poppet were green until right before the poppet where they were lightly yellow, basically still green. The area under the poppet valve was also green. The area at the injector nozzle pintle seat was bright red, and the area across the poppet valve itself was also orange.

The restriction was across the poppet, not to or from it. Always has been, always will be the poppet. If you put a spool valve similar to a 6.0, you could pick up tons of rotella flow. But then you'd have a pos injector like a 6.0 has for reliability and maintenance.

Great info Charles, thank you.

 

[ja_cain]

A buddy of mine and I modeled an entire Heui injector in solidworks back in ~02. We then imported the model into an add on program at the time called Fluidworks or something similar where it would run flow simulations on the model.

The ports coming to the poppet were green until right before the poppet where they were lightly yellow, basically still green. The area under the poppet valve was also green. The area at the injector nozzle pintle seat was bright red, and the area across the poppet valve itself was also orange.

The restriction was across the poppet, not to or from it. Always has been, always will be the poppet. If you put a spool valve similar to a 6.0, you could pick up tons of rotella flow. But then you'd have a pos injector like a 6.0 has for reliability and maintenance.

I've been wanting to get my hands on some detailed drawings/sketches. I have a copy of Autodesks cfd program that we use at work for all of our nozzle flow modeling. You wouldn't happen to have those files handy, would you? I would love to play around with them.

Btw, how is the recovery going? Hope you have been able to kick the flue and pneumonia in time for New Years.

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[ja_cain]

Did you use B-code nozzle springs?



Great info Charles, thank you.

Whs^^^!!

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[N2GN2]

It was B-code springs.Here's a good read. Sounds like we could make some wicked clean hybrids with 3700 PSI VOP. I'm thinking 300/200's! Combine that with some oil modifications and it's time to hit the dyno (after I build the test motor).

 

[DZL JIM]

I'm adding an oil feed to the popet valve and enlarging the path to the IP.

Years ago I played with this as well. Until I TIG welded one of the two existing holes shut and found it hardly changed flow at all.

I tried B code springs years ago, too, on the flow bench, but it's good to read someone has actually changed VOP with real-world dyno numbers. I never got that far. The few that we did for customer's who specified they wanted that done had tuning issues getting it to idle properly, so we never went further.

 

[N2GN2]

I wonder if these changes alone don't matter much, but if we add all of them together we might end up at a different conclusion. My goal is HP without smoke.