Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

cbf9703 · Aug 7, 2016

superpsd said:
I knew about NS being locked out for obvious safety reasons and I had tested it before but did not know about the bypass being locked out as I had only toggled over one time. The main point was the factory calibration runs my 200% nozzles like factory nozzles.

how come no one makes a 300% over nozzle?

They've been done.

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superpsd · Aug 8, 2016

I went digging up old threads and learned a tad bit more about the nozzles and hole sizes ... 100% being about .009 holes 200% about .012 and 400% at .014... Seems 300% never became real popular but can be custom manufactured.

Charles · Aug 8, 2016

superpsd said:
I went digging up old threads and learned a tad bit more about the nozzles and hole sizes ... 100% being about .009 holes 200% about .012 and 400% at .014... Seems 300% never became real popular but can be custom manufactured.

I ran a 300/300. My favorite injector to date, although I never got a chance to dial the 4/4's because my platform took an electrical sh*t on me.

The 3 hundos went 644 uncorrected dynojet on fuel at 3400+rpm. Pulled over 600rwhp beyond 130mph. It was a street killer.

TyCorr · Aug 8, 2016

Charles said:
I ran a 300/300. My favorite injector to date, although I never got a chance to dial the 4/4's because my platform took an electrical sh*t on me.

The 3 hundos went 644 uncorrected dynojet on fuel at 3400+rpm. Pulled over 600rwhp beyond 130mph. It was a street killer.

I wanted to go that route. I had injectors with 100% nozzles but the numbers I was given to get 300% nozzles werent interested. I guess Full force will do those nozzles.

300/300 and and a set of towing compounds or a s 472 would be good.

superpsd · Aug 8, 2016

There is an eBay listing I have seen time to time for any size nozzle you need a d the list includes 300% nozzles. Not sure who supplies them but the location was flordia.

TyCorr · Aug 8, 2016

superpsd said:
There is an eBay listing I have seen time to time for any size nozzle you need a d the list includes 300% nozzles. Not sure who supplies them but the location was flordia.

Im over it now lol....i dont even have the 300s anymore. I have my 250/200s, my original set if ad's, and a set of 160/80s that arent any good as far as I know.

The 250/200s are plenty for my usage. Rarely exceed 25psi in the street.

superpsd · Aug 8, 2016

I have no plans to change what I have as well but I was just curious. I have always read 400%s were tough to daily and more prone to cracking. I just rarely heard anyone mention 300% nozzles.

TyCorr · Aug 8, 2016

superpsd said:
I have no plans to change what I have as well but I was just curious. I have always read 400%s were tough to daily and more prone to cracking. I just rarely heard anyone mention 300% nozzles.

Extrude honed 200s...

PABowhunter · Aug 10, 2016

On Riff Raff's website they have a 300% nozzle option under the Stage 3 Full Force injectors.

Hotrodtractor · Aug 11, 2016

300s,400s, plus a host of custom drilled tips have been done. It takes roughly two bits to drill out the 7 holes in each nozzle tip (actually mill bits, but your just plunge cutting like a drill bit with them). I seem to recall it was like $5 a hole to get drilled... but I might be remembering wrong. Doesn't matter anyway as they seemed to be more prone to cracking with the sizes we were going.

ja_cain · Aug 11, 2016

Hotrodtractor said:
300s,400s, plus a host of custom drilled tips have been done. It takes roughly two bits to drill out the 7 holes in each nozzle tip (actually mill bits, but your just plunge cutting like a drill bit with them). I seem to recall it was like $5 a hole to get drilled... but I might be remembering wrong. Doesn't matter anyway as they seemed to be more prone to cracking with the sizes we were going.

What type of steel are the nozzles made out of?

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ja_cain · Aug 11, 2016

I have opened up a fair amount of holes from .009 to .012, .015 and larger in our spin packs. This was done by manually on a mill in 316. That being said, you are definitely rolling the dice doing 64 of them straight.

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Vader's Fury · Aug 11, 2016

Ya I remember there were issues with the 600 nozzles cracking years ago.

DZL JIM · Aug 23, 2016

So, I read through this whole thread again and I am a bit bummed that there isn't more actual "Tuning 101" stuff.
I blew the dust off of my Minotuar, and realized that I've completely forgotten what to do to get it going (it's been years, and I never really did much to begin with.)
In the spirit of maybe helping others out too, anyone care to walk me (us) through on what to do to get going?
Here's my scenario. I have a tune I want to make changes to, but I want to see the equivalent paramters in a stock tune. So I want to bring up my tune AND a stock tune, and then compare to see what I can/need to adjust.
I got Minotuar loaded up.
What's next?
:shrug:

N2GN2 · Aug 23, 2016

Here ya go Jim https://youtu.be/CRgPOXocSVg

superpsd · Aug 23, 2016

When in a map or table hit F9 and you will overlay the two tunes loaded.
This is my video with poor resolution shot on my pos phone. I will try and setup a better camera and load a better video. I was planning on doing some tuning this week if I get of my lazy ass.
https://youtu.be/JcFigB8WMBk
Second video
https://youtu.be/afC7LbxWKME

Again the videos have horrible resolution I will upload a better one asap.

DZL JIM · Aug 24, 2016

Ok, cool.
Now some technical stuff.
I have a tune that smokes like crazy and won't spool up, but it spools up great with no chip in the computer at all.
How do I go about modifying this tune to try and make this happen?

superpsd · Aug 24, 2016

I spend 98% of the time just adjusting the ICP desired and PW maps. That's also what makes the huge difference in smoke control that I have seen.

Charles · Aug 24, 2016

DZL JIM said:
Ok, cool.
Now some technical stuff.
I have a tune that smokes like crazy and won't spool up, but it spools up great with no chip in the computer at all.
How do I go about modifying this tune to try and make this happen?

I don't know if all the templates use the same function names, but you need to visit what on my templates would be fuel injector pulsewidth. If you "load memory" for the file you want to change and then the resdef, then re-up and immediately "load memory" on the stock file or whatever file you like some aspect of as it seems you may have already figured out above by comparing with "F9" graph view, I think you'll see pw as the problem, although a stock file should honestly have some dumb pw in many cases.

The answer is almost always pulsewidth coming down, especially at lower MFD values in the middle of the map and ICP coming up quicker, especially at these exact same MFD values.

Watch your scanner and notice the MFD where smoke starts to appear. Tackle this point in your pw map by reducing the values say a whole 1.0 at a time. Smooth the map back out so that the map still scales out without weird shapes from minimum to maximum MFD. It should be nearly linear. If a truck has a touchy "ON/OFF" throttle..... look at the low end of this table and you will find the problem....

When the truck lays down and requires more pedal to get the same effect, start plugging ICP back in at the same MFD areas you had to pull pw out of. Just keep steepening the ICP map so that you reach your target max sooner and sooner until the truck behaves as you like.

The two constraints here are that the steeper you get it, the more responsive and crisp it will be until it starts getting touchy and rompy. Those are the two sides of the fence you have to ride between.

That is how you shape the RELATIONSHIP between ICP and PW, which is THE most important aspect for making a truck RUN well....

To make the truck DRIVE well..... you THEN and ONLY AFTER HANDLING PW AND ICP.... move on to the MFD table.

This is where you then map the trucks reaction to your right foot. Feels a little doggy at XX% pedal??? See what MFD value you're getting on the scanner and at what rpm when you want a little more and then go to your MFD table, look at the rpm you noted, scan up the map until you see the MFD value you also noted.... bingo.... this is THE spot on the table that's low...

Push it up say 5 to 10 points, smooth everything back out and retry....

Keep doing this until the pedal "aggressiveness" feels about right....

Next step....

To control how much "BALLS" the truck has when dropped in gear, when coming off a shift, when pulling through a shift, so on and so forth, you need to alter the SLOPE of the MFD values for any given pedal position ( the axis opposite rpm, noted in AD counts, these are the actual analog to digital counts from the internal ADC in the PCM)

If you have the MFD fall off quickly as the rpm climbs for any given pedal position, the truck will tail off quickly as it climbs in a gear, then dive back on power hard into and off a shift. Think Ag governor on a P7100.

If you shallow up the MFD so that the values drop slightly as rpm climbs to your left on the map, the truck will run away as you climb up through a gear, then flat fall on it's face with no power as the shift happens and completes. Think gutless pos.

You can perfectly tailor the trucks "FEEL" by manipulating the slope of the MFD table both as rpm climbs (running toward the left on the map), and the slope of the MFD table as you push harder on the pedal (running up the map).

That's my best attempt at a "101" rough cut. Everything has to happen IN ORDER or copious tail chasing WILL ensue...

Charles · Aug 24, 2016

I should add..... I HIGHLY recommend getting the ICP vs RPM FLAT! Only down near idle should this have to curve a little to accommodate idle icp without having the truck surge away as you come off idle. Keep the ICP as flat as possible as you climb in rpm and handle the acceleration vs pedal in the MFD TABLE ONLY!

This is MY opinion. It works flawlessly fwiw...

Look at some of the files I've posted and notice how the ICP table is very flat left to right (vs rpm) basically anywhere off idle, and how it really only varies with pedal.

Driving a truck that runs away on ICP as your rpm climbs, requiring that you lift a little and a little more as the rpm climbs, then stab back on the pedal on a shift makes me desire a can of gas and a match...

Steep ICP tables that ramp up as rpm climb are a common culprit. This also makes the truck jittery on cruise whenever the rpm is up because even though the demand is low.... the ICP is high just because rpm is high.... see the problem???

Anyway.... just wanted to add that.