EGT getting up there fast? Problem?

[Charles]

So, you are telling me Jody is a liar? That chunk of text I just cut and pasted from an email conversion I had with him. So, you've just called him a liar about his own products. I need to know the truth. . .please enlighten me.

Yes. Although too ignorant to know better may be more apt a description at this point.


Although I have never checked the actual values due to this having not come up in a while, I just took the time in the past few minutes to run the ACTUAL output timing based directly on the programming. I once had a conversation with Jody years and years ago where I explained in excrusiating detail the appropriate way to both measure and compare timing on these trucks. In this conversation I flat out told him that at the time I was running 28 degrees MAX. He looked at me like I was dumb. I could tell the thought of 28 degrees looked ALIEN to the man, and immediately knew he was out of it. Period.

Whatever..... moving on....


I then have a few different people in the course of discussions at later points state in direct terms that Jody runs less timing than me. Whatever that means. All the while bearing in mind that everybody's sh*t is coming all apart and sounds like hammered ass 24-7 and mine doesn't.....

Well, the catch-all excuse has always been.... well, have you SEEN his programming? And obviously my answer, never having f'ed with his sh*t is no. At which point the dim-witted masses smugly roll their eyes and continue telling themselves I must be a moron then.

Well, a while back I happened to pull the program off my 550 computer that Jody flashed to it's memory himself. Bare in mind that the man flashed this program to MY computer, while standing face to face with me. We could only assume that if ANYTHING, what he gave me would be conservatively timed, given our opposing views on the very subject of timing.



FACTS:

The EXACT program I was running the day I said I was running 28* max has a MAXIMUM base timing value of 8.5* @ 3000rpm.

The program taken from my 550 has a MAXIMUM base timing value of 12* @ 3000rpm.

Right off the bat Jody's tow program from my 550 is running another 3.5 degrees at 3000rpm.

But it gets better folks. The EOT modifier table I've always SCREAMED at you people? Well, in my program it is set to 1. Period. Everywhere, just good old 1. This is 1ms of offset. At 3000rpm this equates to 18* of advance. Coupled with the 8.5 degree base timing, this puts me at 26.5* of timing.

Now in Jody's file from my 550? At an engine oil temp between 0 and 200*F and 3000psi, we are looking at an injection offset value of 1.418ms. This equates to an advance value of 25.52 degrees. Pair that with the 12* base advance and you're looking at 37.5 degrees of advance at 3000rpm.


As a safety, I had the maximum allowable timing parameter set to 28. Looking at the file from my 550, Jody had it set to 135 degrees maximum allowable advance. Not going to stop anything.



This was a single, towing file. Having briefly looked at some others I know for a fact that this one was tame in comparison.

My 550 was running over 40 degrees of advance at rpm values greater than 3000.


Facts.

It cannot be more objective. I did not choose unrealistic values. That's as real-life as it gets. Full fuel, 3000rpm. Even at half MFD, the timing would have still be upward of 35 degrees. It is what it is. I to this day still fail to understand the confusion on this subject.

 

[golfer]

..so..the price of chips are roughly $10 per degree of timing?

 

[psduser1]

Very infomative, Charles, thank you. Nice to see actual parameters, instead of subjective talk
.:lookaround:

 

[Pbguy420]

Ok guys either break it down Barney style for me or throw me a link to a thread. I build guns and shoot bad guys I'm new to the auto anything world


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[TyCorr]

Ok guys either break it down Barney style for me or throw me a link to a thread. I build guns and shoot bad guys I'm new to the auto anything world


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Pay attention. Thats it in plainspeak. If you dont follow go do some reading. Then read it again. Itll make sense eventually.

Point is there are some issues with certain tuning.

Lets all hope this doesnt turn into an old battle thats been hashed before.

To the op, judging by your multiple heat related problems, the smoke coming out of your wheelwell id say that your brake or ebrake is hung up and its causing your egts to be high, your trans temp to be high, and your brakes to smoke.

 

[2006nytro]

Not to be a dick head but can we keep this on topic who cares what jody does if ya don't like it don't run it. just my opinion.

 

[KPSquared]

That's the first "DP sucks" explanation I've ever read that made any sense . .enough to make me want to dump my chip. I seriously regret my decision. . .wish I had the money to change things.

 

[Charles]

Not to be a dick head but can we keep this on topic who cares what jody does if ya don't like it don't run it. just my opinion.

Topic:

My EGT is higher than I think it should be.



The answer from his tuner is reportedly, that it is to be expected, since the timing is relatively low, and we must assume this to be in comparison to.. other tuners.

Given available evidence, that makes little sense.


Does the fact that the answer given to the man's question is most likely incorrect and in fact probably just the opposite of the truth simply not matter?

If so, then why don't you all just buy a magic 8 ball and save the forum the wasted time next time you have a question?



Now if some huge shift has been made in his programs, then air it out, SHOW us the maps to prove it, and this can be a thing of the past. Otherwise, I have no desire to see people misinformed.

Do you know how many people have told me they were running single digit timing values with a straight face? These are people that are almost certainly running well over 30 degrees of timing, but that have been told they are running say 9. Then comparing that to values of myself and others who make public the fact that we are running high 20's to mid 30's at given rpm ranges, these people mistakenly go off thinking they are running very conservatively, when the truth is, they are right on the ragged edge, making the timing settings that myself and others are running look like child's play.

With as many of them as have annihilated good engines back to back at dismal power outputs the importance of not jacking people around is high. When someone puts together a few thousand dollars worth of engine for a second or third time because they were told one thing and got something else entirely, you eventually realize what's going on.

Last time I had this discussion I used Smorris' truck as example, citing as evidence the fact that it had blown to bits multiple times at power levels far below what others were doing at the time on factory engines, as well as the obvious injection delay adubly reported by the running engine itself.

Scott changed to a file with more appropriate SOI and as if by magic, all that clatter, vibration and dripping antifreeze just went away. It's the same deal in each case.



I usually ignore it now. But the comment above that the timing was actually low in such files was just too much.



I would suggest that anyone wanting to make such a statement in the future, includes the Sea Level SOI map and the Injection Offset map for reference. Otherwise it's just the same decade-old bullsh*t.

 

[Charles]

That's the first "DP sucks" explanation I've ever read that made any sense . .enough to make me want to dump my chip. I seriously regret my decision. . .wish I had the money to change things.

I never said DP sucks.

Running _____ degrees at _____ rpm isn't my problem. I just don't like seeing people being told they are running x, when they are actually running around 4 times that in some cases. Even more in others.

If you write a program that will place an engine at 37 degrees of timing under normal operating conditions, then you don't need to tell someone that they are running 10 degrees for instance. Things like that just aren't good.

If he sucks, he sucks. If he's great, he's great. I have zero care for that, as most of it's preferential anyway. The hard numbers aren't. If you tell someone they're running 2500psi, I wouldn't expect to measure 10,000 in the heads on subsequent runs after trying to figure out why the injectors ruptured. That's my only point. Do what you say and say what you do. And if you don't know any better, then either figure it out, or pack it up.

 

[Marty]

Whole E Shnike

 

[TyCorr]

Whole E Shnike

At which part?

 

[MRT1]

Topic:

My EGT is higher than I think it should be.



The answer from his tuner is reportedly, that it is to be expected, since the timing is relatively low, and we must assume this to be in comparison to.. other tuners.

Given available evidence, that makes little sense.


Does the fact that the answer given to the man's question is most likely incorrect and in fact probably just the opposite of the truth simply not matter? To be fair you should look at a recent tune instead of one five years old.

If so, then why don't you all just buy a magic 8 ball and save the forum the wasted time next time you have a question?



Now if some huge shift has been made in his programs, then air it out, SHOW us the maps to prove it, and this can be a thing of the past. Otherwise, I have no desire to see people misinformed. Why not give him a call and ask?

Do you know how many people have told me they were running single digit timing values with a straight face? These are people that are almost certainly running well over 30 degrees of timing, but that have been told they are running say 9. No one is running over 30 if they have calibrations that have been updated in the last four years or so.Then comparing that to values of myself and others who make public the fact that we are running high 20's to mid 30's at given rpm ranges, these people mistakenly go off thinking they are running very conservatively, when the truth is, they are right on the ragged edge, making the timing settings that myself and others are running look like child's play.

With as many of them as have annihilated good engines back to back at dismal power outputs the importance of not jacking people around is high. When someone puts together a few thousand dollars worth of engine for a second or third time because they were told one thing and got something else entirely, you eventually realize what's going on.

Last time I had this discussion I used Smorris' truck as example, citing as evidence the fact that it had blown to bits multiple times at power levels far below what others were doing at the time on factory engines, as well as the obvious injection delay adubly reported by the running engine itself.

Scott changed to a file with more appropriate SOI and as if by magic, all that clatter, vibration and dripping antifreeze just went away. It's the same deal in each case.



I usually ignore it now. But the comment above that the timing was actually low in such files was just too much.



I would suggest that anyone wanting to make such a statement in the future, includes the Sea Level SOI map and the Injection Offset map for reference. Otherwise it's just the same decade-old bullsh*t.

You know you can limit the total timing regardless of the above mentioned values. Not to mention those are not the only tables that can add timing.

 

[TyCorr]

You know you can limit the total timing regardless of the above mentioned values. Not to mention those are not the only tables that can add timing.

Kpsquared, the guy that posted and prompted Charles reply, just bought his tuner w in the last year from Jody. So what he said is still relevant. He actually copied/pasted what Jody said to him. That would be verbatim where Im from.

Additionally, this came up 8 months ago on the other site. Jody posted, php posted, etc....it got ugly...nothing changed apparently because dp tuner said nothing was wrong, EEEEEEEVER!

Ive personally seen a truck running a dp tuner. A year and two months ago I convinced that guy to get a ts chip and php tuning. The truck sounded like someone hitting a tin trash barrel with jodys tunes. He had it for a couple.months tops. The timing was the obvious culprit as it was audible. The user claimed it was touchy too(dp tuner).

Thats the extent of my experience bud! I wont say more. I was not around during the heyday of the tuner wars. Ive got no interest in that. Old files are still being distributed or they have not changed the timing portion of the tuning.

Ive got nothing against dp personally. There are people running jodys live tunes that are happy and kicking azs but theres some chit goin on elsewhere. My buddy sold his dp tuner so I dont even know anyone running the dp thning anymore....

 

[MRT1]

Kpsquared, the guy that posted and prompted Charles reply, just bought his tuner w in the last year from Jody. So what he said is still relevant. He actually copied/pasted what Jody said to him. That would be verbatim where Im from. I am not questioning any relevance and have no interest in he said she said. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the calibration Charles posted was more than five years old. I am sure tuning calibrations have evolved during that time period. I have purchased calibrations from Swamps, Gearhead, Total Diesel Performance, DI, DP-Tuner, PHP and I can assure you that all of there calibrations have evolved over the last couple years. The calibration I purchased from DP-Tuner four years ago does not exceed a total timing value of 28 degrees and to clarify I do not use Autoenginuity to data log. Let me say this is my experience and others experience may vary.

Additionally, this came up 8 months ago on the other site. Jody posted, php posted, etc....it got ugly...nothing changed apparently because dp tuner said nothing was wrong, EEEEEEEVER!

Ive personally seen a truck running a dp tuner. A year and two months ago I convinced that guy to get a ts chip and php tuning. The truck sounded like someone hitting a tin trash barrel with jodys tunes. He had it for a couple.months tops. The timing was the obvious culprit as it was audible. The user claimed it was touchy too(dp tuner).

Thats the extent of my experience bud! I wont say more. I was not around during the heyday of the tuner wars. Ive got no interest in that. Old files are still being distributed or they have not changed the timing portion of the tuning.

Ive got nothing against dp personally. There are people running jodys live tunes that are happy and kicking azs but theres some chit goin on elsewhere. My buddy sold his dp tuner so I dont even know anyone running the dp thning anymore....

I have nothing against any of the tuners I have purchased calibrations from, they all have pros and cons.

 

[TrailerHauler]

You know you can limit the total timing regardless of the above mentioned values. Not to mention those are not the only tables that can add timing.

From what I gathered out of Charles posts he could care less about Jody's tunes, and was simply pointing out the facts based on a tune he once had. All provoked by KPSquared's post.

Great read by the way Charles, good solid, cut and dry information. Your posts made me dig up this picture.

 

[TyCorr]

I have nothing against any of the tuners I have purchased calibrations from, they all have pros and cons.

Neither you nor I know that. He only said the tune hes running on that truck has been there for a year. Thats up to him to clarify. I honestly dont think he cares enuff anymore to say.

I added my experience to say "yes dp tuner did run significant amounts of timing" in the last year. That corroborates what Charles is showing. Dp tuner was of the position, last year that they didnt change their programming. Because,hate to repeat myself, they said there wasnt anything wrong with their timing. They claimed the graphs posted are not theirs.

Believe it, or dont, I dont really care. Im done with this. I dont want to derail this in that direction furthermore. Do what you want its your truck/money/life.

 

[dietoremain]

LOLLOLLOL

 

[Charles]

To be fair you should look at a recent tune, not one 5 years old.

So post up some maps. Keep in mind that the program I looked at was one that he burned specifically to my own computer. Now why on earth would he give me anything he even felt remotely aggressive on timing? Think about things like this. It makes a guy like me think that he's so out of it that he actually thought that was very tame, so that if I did in fact inspect it, I would find nothing out of the ordinary. I would assume what he gave me to be a sample taken near the conservative end, if not at the conservative end of his tuning spectrum. Looking at other files from other vehicles, including maps posted on 80E in the past, this is confirmed.

However, as I said, if anyone wishes to prove otherwise, just post the map views as I did. Otherwise it's just a whole lot of nothing worth talking about.

Why not give him a call and ask?

Why not walk outside and talk to a yellow pine?

No one is running over 30 if they have calibrations that have been updated in the last four years or so.

Highly unlikely.

You know you can limit the total timing regardless of the above mentioned values. Not to mention those are not the only tables that can add timing.

I specifically listed the values placed in the timing limiting parameters. On my file I had the safety catch set to 28*, in Jody's file from my 550 it was set to 135*.

More importantly, I have actually verified my injection timing with my osscilloscope literally countless times. When the safety catch is set to 28*, the timing stops at exactly 28* on my scope. Things like that make a man pretty confident in his methods. Having messed with all the maps illustrated in this thread and scope verifying them extensively, I can say with confidence that the timing on my 550 was exactly what I posted above.

Lastly, Jody asserted that he had in fact also verified all this in his own programming with an osscilloscope many times in previous discussions when we later found out he didn't even own one nor even know how to use one on a 7.3 to check timing or pulsewidth.


A programmer that likes to run a lot of timing is one thing. I don't mind that. It is what it is, and people can make that choice. The problem would be doing that, while telling all your customers that they were running very modest timing. That means that they do not get to make that choice.

You see people pull one chip that is fueling plenty hard and install another that smokes similarly, yet produces increased power at the same ICP. And for some reason it never clicks as to how this is possible. There are three variables. Injection pressure, pulsewidth and timing. You know which one makes large jumps in power at the cost of engine durability any day of the week? Timing. I once increased timing by 7 degrees and picked up 140rwhp while on the dyno. It's a big deal. Increased power doesn't just come from thin air. If you choose to run more timing and gain that extra power at the cost of increased engine stress, I have no problem with that. I just can't stand the thought of a guy thinking he's being conservative with his daily driver when he's actually running much more timing than some of the highest powered trucks in the country. Such as was likely the case for KPSquared, who then relayed the same decree down to the OP.

 

[Pbguy420]

Can one company reprogram another's chip? Or am I stuck with what I got?


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[KPSquared]

I seriously wasn't trying to start crap. I'm pretty new to all this (asked a lot of questions . . .get a lot of conflicting answers) I just wanted to know what was up 'cause I got a straight faced "my timing isn't high" from Jody. I mean, if the guys timing is gonna wreck stuff, why not change it? Or is this seriously all from 5 (million) years ago and everything is different now?

I know Jody isn't lying. . .he fully believes what he is telling me. The reality is, the internet can be hard on sub-standard products . . . or good products that people have given a bad name. If you fully believe you products are worth selling, I think it's time to get online, deal with the crap, and defend it in a professional, knowledgeable manner. If you can't do that, it starts to make people think you're hiding something.

So much of this is heresay. . .Charles has a lot of evidence but no one with anything to the contrary is around to say anything different. If things have changed, why not take the time to get online and prove it.

DP can't just pretend the internet isn't there. If 5 seconds on Google turns up info that give's your company a bad name, it's time to get online and prove your products are worth having. Just the fact that DP doesn't want to have this fight makes me question the integrity of their business. It's an online world. . .everyone lives in it.

I can't afford to change my decision. . .I did a lot of research, asked a lot of questions, presented many of them to Jody and he had what I believed to be solid answers to all of them. So I chose his product . . . now the more I learn (and the more my radio reception sucks) I wish I would have gone another way. I figured if the "just pick a tuner, everyone who sponsors this site has great products" mentality was reality. . . but the more info I gather, the less it seems that way.

I know this fight is "so five years ago" but I think it's time for the debate to be settled so this just stops. . . it's just numbers . . . pretty hard to have subjective evidence with numbers isn't it? It's either good or it's not. . .

Now that I've typed all this I don't even want to post it 'cause I can't to anything about it. . . but hey, what's the point of an online community if you can't have a discussion? lots of these guys weren't here 5 years ago . . .including me.