600% nozzles???

[ChattyCathy]

So you payed credit, or cash, details...

Dyno values don't matter to you, and you think a truck running 28* of timing sounds like a bag of hammers...

My first post was dead on. You don't understand much, you just do what you're told, and pay someone else to tune it in such a way that 300cc's is the max the poor engine can take.

A stock bottom end will only hold 500hp if you treat it like sh*t too.

The golden gate bridge could only support a few thousand pounds without failure if dropped from space...

That doesn't mean the golden gate bridge can only support a few thousand pounds.

What weighs more in space the golden gate or yore corduroy pants?

 

[superpsd]

So if 4k ICP is no longer extreme what is the new extreme?

 

[elrodalexander73]

I don't think its necessarily an extreme pressure, its maintaining pressure at with a larger surface area/cavity to fill, the more fuel we move per shot the more oil needs to be there. Tuning plays a huge part in how much fuel we can move with lots of pressure, HRT can explain this much clearer than I can, the problem I see with it is like he said, the electronic side, creating very precise injection events at very high rpm, at 5000rpm there are something like 42 events per second, thats a very precise event to control. Something even common rail cannot maintain... Thus why the P-pump dominates in the sport of tractor pulling. Swamps has done alot of IDM R&D to help eliminate this high rpm problem where the H.P lives. Too much PW with lots available ICP down low is what snaps our lovely blocks, HRT may be on to the right road here. The P-pumps ability to produce fuel shots precisely with quick rate cams and large 13-14mm p&bs is what we are basically trying replicate with electronics and solenoids... Its a huge hurdle for both common rail and Heui.

 

[superpsd]

I have pretty much come to understand most of that from the threads I had dug up around here but I was just curious as to what kind of pressures some of these modified heui systems have been pushed to and are they using gear pumps or PD pumps to achieve high pressures.

 

[gwunter]

I love it when HRT posts something that I have to read several times to try and comprehend I.e. his point number 4. I can't imagine tolerances so tight that if you hold on to the one piece that it will expand enough to make it not fit. I'm in no way doubting this, just seems extreme for my finite mind. I really hope this is a break through for the heui 7.3. What kind of coating is being applied over in Europe??

 

[lincolnlocker]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread.....

1) The problem is not necessarily in the electronics, but it is a control problem none the less.

2) Just because someone advertises a 600cc or 750cc injector does not mean that all of that volume is being used. Sometimes it is the nature of how production things are modified into performance things that gives you certain values that you just have to roll with.

3) Injection ratio and moving mass amounts of fluid are all VERY critical to a HEUI setup. There are lots of scenarios to consider and lots of compromises to be made. A numerically lower injection ratio can actually deliver a higher injection pressure to a tip at HIGH demand - this is due to pressure loss of fluid through is travel to the intensifier piston. With a higher injection ratio the flow rate demand to keep up is so high that the amount of pressure that is lost is great enough that it is a detriment to injection pressure. A lower injection ratio means that at LOW demands you don't have as high of an injection pressure as you would with a higher injection ratio (all things being equal).

4) Others have tired lower ratio plungers and barrels - they didn't work due to machining tolerances - these things HAVE to be VERY tight. They also chose poorly on their injection ratio (I'll just say that is my opinion as I don't want to go down the path of how to choose an optimum ratio number based upon actual data points and extrapolating operating ranges for certain tasks). The plungers and barrels that I have were machined in a temperature controlled environment, then heat treated, then ground in a very tightly controlled temperature controlled environment, then shipped to Europe for a proprietary coating that you will find used on a good number of the aftermarket plungers and barrels being used for mechanical pumps, then they were all measured used custom made air gauges and hand fit and matched to provide the desired fit tolerance. If I take the plunger out of the barrel and hold it in my hand for a minute and try and reassemble it, it won't fit. There is a 50 millionths of an inch slip fit when all is said and done (that's 0.00005" and also very comparable to the high performance plungers and barrels found in the high end mechanical pumps).

5) I have designed and prototyped new solenoids - utilizing the same power requirements as the current solenoids I have quadrupled the strength at the same distance. Yay science! It remains to be seen if these cause other electrical interference issues in operation.... It takes over 100 components and nearly 30 hours to build one precisely by hand once the components themselves are manufactured from raw stock.

6) Refilling the injector is not a concern for me. I have yet to see any issues using standard fuel pressure setups. On my pulling truck I tested up to 300psi using a mechanical lift pump.... so options are already out there if it does become an issue. (DON'T go out and put 300psi to your injectors.... you won't like it!!)

7) I laugh at the old 4kpsi "extreme ICP" - that is far from extreme.

8) Most people base the capabilities of the 7.3 bottom end on how it has handled an injection system that is slow and requires LONG PW events to inject a volume of fuel worthy of power. That LONG PW directly translates into low RPM. Low RPM, "high" power means high torque. Torque makes **** go boom.

9) This stuff is expensive and time consuming. I'm doing it on my own dime and it will be ready when its ready and I have no expectations of ever getting close to breaking even - no one can afford to buy parts for what they actually cost to make in such small quantities.

thats ***in insanely awesome!! i cant wait to see how they run..

live life full throttle

 

[2000wa250]

Hrt, I gotta say I'm impressed at the time, effort, and money you have/are putting into r&d for yourself. I'm sure just the process of making the solenoids was a bit of a trial and error process (wait, isn't that the scientific method?) Can't wait to see how they run.

What, in your opinion, is the limit for ICP that the 7.3 system, in relatively stock form, but in good shape, can handle?

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I love it when HRT posts something that I have to read several times to try and comprehend I.e. his point number 4. I can't imagine tolerances so tight that if you hold on to the one piece that it will expand enough to make it not fit. I'm in no way doubting this, just seems extreme for my finite mind. I really hope this is a break through for the heui 7.3. What kind of coating is being applied over in Europe??

At that clearance even without touching them I can guarantee its a c*cksuker to get them to go together.

We had to deal with some fuel systems like that at cat. Obviously not the same. But I know how tight that stuff is. Very fine point of working and locking up if they don't expand exactly the same. Nothing better than material transfer!!




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[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

Tuning plays a huge part in how much fuel we can move with lots of pressure, HRT can explain this much clearer than I can, the problem I see with it is like he said, the electronic side, creating very precise injection events at very high rpm, at 5000rpm there are something like 42 events per second, thats a very precise event to control. Something even common rail cannot maintain... /QUOTE]


This is where it's am going to factually disagree. I have the ability with piezo injectors to fuel fully with no issue. I leave the line at anywhere from 5-5500 rpm. I fact I was hitting the defuel rpm and had to raise it to 5800... Rpms are not an issue for commonrail. Even the solenoid driven Bosch injectors have ran 7000+....


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[ja_cain]

Tuning plays a huge part in how much fuel we can move with lots of pressure, HRT can explain this much clearer than I can, the problem I see with it is like he said, the electronic side, creating very precise injection events at very high rpm, at 5000rpm there are something like 42 events per second, thats a very precise event to control. Something even common rail cannot maintain... /QUOTE]


This is where it's am going to factually disagree. I have the ability with piezo injectors to fuel fully with no issue. I leave the line at anywhere from 5-5500 rpm. I fact I was hitting the defuel rpm and had to raise it to 5800... Rpms are not an issue for commonrail. Even the solenoid driven Bosch injectors have ran 7000+....


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They do multiple injection events per combustion cycle. Definitely high speed and precision technology. That being said, why is the operating range about the same as say the 7.3. After seeing the red line on these truck I would have thought it would be approaching large displacement gas engine engine speeds. I could be wrong so feel free to correct me.

The passenger car diesels like what come in the bmw's definitely rev higher but they obviously don't have the same rotating and reciprocating mass, rod to stroke ratio, etc. So this might be why the range is different but I would still think the red line would be significantly higher than a 7.3

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

Rpms are not an issue for commonrail. Even the solenoid driven Bosch injectors have ran 7000+....

Maybe I need to record the 7.3 solenoids on the bench firing at 10,000RPM

I did it just to see if they would even actuate, and they do. Its the rest of the injector that doesn't like it.

 

[Tim @ P.I.S.]

They do multiple injection events per combustion cycle. Definitely high speed and precision technology. That being said, why is the operating range about the same as say the 7.3. After seeing the red line on these truck I would have thought it would be approaching large displacement gas engine engine speeds. I could be wrong so feel free to correct me.

The passenger car diesels like what come in the bmw's definitely rev higher but they obviously don't have the same rotating and reciprocating mass, rod to stroke ratio, etc. So this might be why the range is different but I would still think the red line would be significantly higher than a 7.3

TIME, its all about TIME.

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

They do multiple injection events per combustion cycle. Definitely high speed and precision technology. That being said, why is the operating range about the same as say the 7.3. After seeing the red line on these truck I would have thought it would be approaching large displacement gas engine engine speeds. I could be wrong so feel free to correct me.

The passenger car diesels like what come in the bmw's definitely rev higher but they obviously don't have the same rotating and reciprocating mass, rod to stroke ratio, etc. So this might be why the range is different but I would still think the red line would be significantly higher than a 7.3

The reason the rpm limit is lower as where the hp/tq curve is. No reason to rev to 5000 when the power peaks at 3000 or less.

And I can tell you that after certain rpm (dictated in the individual applications tuning) all commonrail only pulse one time per injection event.

Once again I can factually prove that either a solenoid driven or piezo commonrail can effectively fuel at very high rpms. Not really anything new. Kuziak's truck ran 7000 over two years ago. I have no need to run higher yet. 5500 is doing well so far. If we need to go higher we can. Not an issue. The pcm hasn't stopped us yet.




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[ja_cain]

I don't even know where to begin with this thread.....

1) The problem is not necessarily in the electronics, but it is a control problem none the less.

2) Just because someone advertises a 600cc or 750cc injector does not mean that all of that volume is being used. Sometimes it is the nature of how production things are modified into performance things that gives you certain values that you just have to roll with.

3) Injection ratio and moving mass amounts of fluid are all VERY critical to a HEUI setup. There are lots of scenarios to consider and lots of compromises to be made. A numerically lower injection ratio can actually deliver a higher injection pressure to a tip at HIGH demand - this is due to pressure loss of fluid through is travel to the intensifier piston. With a higher injection ratio the flow rate demand to keep up is so high that the amount of pressure that is lost is great enough that it is a detriment to injection pressure. A lower injection ratio means that at LOW demands you don't have as high of an injection pressure as you would with a higher injection ratio (all things being equal).

4) Others have tired lower ratio plungers and barrels - they didn't work due to machining tolerances - these things HAVE to be VERY tight. They also chose poorly on their injection ratio (I'll just say that is my opinion as I don't want to go down the path of how to choose an optimum ratio number based upon actual data points and extrapolating operating ranges for certain tasks). The plungers and barrels that I have were machined in a temperature controlled environment, then heat treated, then ground in a very tightly controlled temperature controlled environment, then shipped to Europe for a proprietary coating that you will find used on a good number of the aftermarket plungers and barrels being used for mechanical pumps, then they were all measured used custom made air gauges and hand fit and matched to provide the desired fit tolerance. If I take the plunger out of the barrel and hold it in my hand for a minute and try and reassemble it, it won't fit. There is a 50 millionths of an inch slip fit when all is said and done (that's 0.00005" and also very comparable to the high performance plungers and barrels found in the high end mechanical pumps).

5) I have designed and prototyped new solenoids - utilizing the same power requirements as the current solenoids I have quadrupled the strength at the same distance. Yay science! It remains to be seen if these cause other electrical interference issues in operation.... It takes over 100 components and nearly 30 hours to build one precisely by hand once the components themselves are manufactured from raw stock.

6) Refilling the injector is not a concern for me. I have yet to see any issues using standard fuel pressure setups. On my pulling truck I tested up to 300psi using a mechanical lift pump.... so options are already out there if it does become an issue. (DON'T go out and put 300psi to your injectors.... you won't like it!!)

7) I laugh at the old 4kpsi "extreme ICP" - that is far from extreme.

8) Most people base the capabilities of the 7.3 bottom end on how it has handled an injection system that is slow and requires LONG PW events to inject a volume of fuel worthy of power. That LONG PW directly translates into low RPM. Low RPM, "high" power means high torque. Torque makes **** go boom.

9) This stuff is expensive and time consuming. I'm doing it on my own dime and it will be ready when its ready and I have no expectations of ever getting close to breaking even - no one can afford to buy parts for what they actually cost to make in such small quantities.

Awesome post! If only we all had classes in fluid mechanics or fluid dynamics we could understand all of this more easily. Laminar flow vs. turbulent flow. My understanding is its all about manipulating the velocity to limit frictional losses/turbulence. The injection ratio stuff makes complete since to me. Limit flow rate and you limit velocity and frictional losses. Just like looking at flow data on a valve or cv's.

 

[ja_cain]

The reason the rpm limit is lower as where the hp/tq curve is. No reason to rev to 5000 when the power peaks at 3000 or less.

And I can tell you that after certain rpm (dictated in the individual applications tuning) all commonrail only pulse one time per injection event.

Once again I can factually prove that either a solenoid driven or piezo commonrail can effectively fuel at very high rpms. Not really anything new. Kuziak's truck ran 7000 over two years ago. I have no need to run higher yet. 5500 is doing well so far. If we need to go higher we can. Not an issue. The pcm hasn't stopped us yet.




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I know that is actually what it is but I always thought shifting the power band up higher in the rpm range helped longevity. Keeps high cylinder pressure pulse widths shorter so you don't window the block.

I wish I could get one of those nifty combo pressure transducer glow plug thingys that they use in the Volkswagen for my 7.3. Been meaning to call the company and see what configurations they offer.

I love these threads. The little bit I take away from it makes me look like I halfway know what I'm talking about when having work related discussions with my brother.

 

[psduser1]

Maybe I need to record the 7.3 solenoids on the bench firing at 10,000RPM

I did it just to see if they would even actuate, and they do. Its the rest of the injector that doesn't like it.

Please do, that would be sweet!

 

[Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto]

I know that is actually what it is but I always thought shifting the power band up higher in the rpm range helped longevity. Keeps high cylinder pressure pulse widths shorter so you don't window the block.

I wish I could get one of those nifty combo pressure transducer glow plug thingys that they use in the Volkswagen for my 7.3. Been meaning to call the company and see what configurations they offer.

I love these threads. The little bit I take away from it makes me look like I halfway know what I'm talking about when having work related discussions with my brother.

Higher rpms is a double edged sword. In a stock passenger vehicle high rpms are not really a good thing. 90% of all new vehicles still cruise less than 2000 rpms.


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[ghohouston]

I wish I could get one of those nifty combo pressure transducer glow plug thingys that they use in the Volkswagen for my 7.3. Been meaning to call the company and see what configurations they offer.

Say what?

 

[ja_cain]

Higher rpms is a double edged sword. In a stock passenger vehicle high rpms are not really a good thing. 90% of all new vehicles still cruise less than 2000 rpms.


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Good point. Friction probably goes up significantly as engine rpm increases. That is probably one of the reasons why oil change intervals are being pushed out on cars because they are spending less time in higher rpms due to the increase in number of gears in transmissions or cvt's.

I have to keep in mind the context of this discussion which is maximum performance not maximum longevity with acceptable performance. Thanks for the info.

 

[ja_cain]

Say what?

http://www.beru.com/bw/products/diesel-cold-start-technology/pressure-sensor-glow-plug-psg