Detuning large injector nozzles - How to pick injector size for upgrades!

[TyCorr]

I love my PIS 250/200. I dont always agree with the builders theory on application but his injectors are outstanding. Best idling truck ive ever had. Chip no chip. Doesn't matter.

Im not sure how fast they are but they seem to fuel great. No spots where they dont fuel.

 

[cbf9703]

So where does a guy who is willing to spend the time and money go to get live tuned with a transducer installed to read cylinder pressure? I've had this truck since new and I'm gonna have it for another 16 years.

As said, Swamps will do it. They've been looking at cylinder pressure for years in their tuning.

Swamps in Tennessee can do it.

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Yep. Good group of guys. Jonathan has always been receptive to feedback and working with me.

Yup just had them a blank check and your truck imp:

Lol I have a few ideas of what they could do with a blank check.... there is a mechanical pump set up for a 7.3 sitting in their engine room just waiting for someone to throw some time and money it's way....

Yes. I agree that great combos come together great.


Do you theorize that with the EXACT same setup and lets say 100% nozzles, same amount of tuning time... what do you think the affect on your setup would be. Not being sarcastic at all. Serious question.

If you are curious. Drive down to AZ and we will spend the whole weekend on my dyno testing it. Free dyno time. Can't beat that.

Sounds like an awesome deal! I'll be in Vegas in November, if I had big injectors I'd take you up on it!

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[PSD POWER007]

Nope.

Not surprised. Everyone is always willing to talk a big game.

 

[TyCorr]

Not surprised. Everyone is always willing to talk a big game.

What the ***k is that supposed to mean? That nobody tuned or installed an a code right before? You do realize some people have tried things they speak about?

 

[Hotrodtractor]

Not surprised. Everyone is always willing to talk a big game.

I'm not going to go that far. Many people are happy with the injectors that he builds. We just happen to have some fundamental disagreements on how they can be applied. If he doesn't want to make full flow charts of his injectors available publicly in a format that can be compared then that is his prerogative.

Ideally there would be a 3rd party flow bench that could flow chart everyone's unique injector build so they could be compared on the same basic format - that would go a long way to help these discussions, tuning, etc.... but that isn't ever going to happen because everyone with a flow bench has skin in the game at some level.

This same argument will go on for as long as there is more than one person working on 7.3L engines.

 

[superpsd]

One of the main concerns this thread is about is that the larger you go on the nozzle atomization suffers. How badly it suffers is dependent on many variables. Until someone tests several different styles and sizes of injectors an captures the spray with a high speed camera it will all be speculation and theory.

 

[KCTurbos]

One of the main concerns this thread is about is that the larger you go on the nozzle atomization suffers. How badly it suffers is dependent on many variables. Until someone tests several different styles and sizes of injectors an captures the spray with a high speed camera it will all be speculation and theory.

I tired really hard to stay out of this thread... but... here I am.

I am sorry but you don't need a high speed camera and it is not speculation, it is simple science. I am not trying to come off as a jerk, but here is why...


Given any RPM, Inj PW, and nozzle size and keep it constant... As icp goes down, your atomization goes down. As ICP goes up, your atomization goes up. Very simple principle that everyone can agree on.

Keeping nozzle size, rpm, and INJ PW constant. As ICP goes up, you will dump more fuel. As ICP goes down you dump less fuel.

Keeping the nozzle size constant. If you want to dump the same amount of fuel. Then as your ICP goes up, you must drop your PW.

Now keep the Inj PW and ICP the same. As nozzle size goes up you dump more fuel, as nozzle size goes down you dump less fuel.

So to dump the same amount of fuel given a larger nozzle, you must drop either Inj PW, ICP, or both.


Simple so far... right? All concepts we can agree on. So why does this matter?


At a certain point the nozzle size gets so big that you must drop ICP and Inj PW enough that it causes two negative factors. As you drop ICP you will lose atomization. Also at a certain point when you drop Inj PW at lower rpms you will miss the optimum window in which to dump fuel and optimize torque. That is why it is so hard to get bigger nozzles to run right down low.

This has been tested by many people on the dyno and has shown that smaller nozzles produce more tq down low, bigger nozzle produce more HP up top. This is basically just a different variation of what Jay said in the first post.





In short, less ICP means lower atomizaion. Keeping everything else constant, smaller nozzles can run higher ICP when compared to a bigger nozzle.

Also... too short of Inj PW will just result in a lot of noise, you need to be fueling on the way back down. Not just at TDC. There is an "optimum" window to dump your fuel to maximize power efficiently.

Using the same science... smaller nozzles will struggle on the top end because the PW becomes too long and now you are missing the "optimum" window to dump all the fuel.



People can argue all they want. And talk about how great their truck runs, I don't doubt it runs great, but there are pluses and minus to nozzle size. No perfect option. Anyone that takes the time to test these theories on a dyno will come to the same conclusion as everyone else that has tried.


Once again... my dyno is open to anyone that is willing to put in the time to test these theories.

 

[cjfarm111]

Well put. Lots of good info there that makes sense. Thanks....and I tend to agree

 

[m_j]

seems stuck on the TDC thing. is there that little timing control in these things?

 

[TyCorr]

LOL LOL

Im just laughing at all these comments.

You can tell who put ac's in their truck and went "whoa, thats louder". And then backed it off. The bang for the buck isnt there in my opinion. But Ive only done it so I have no idea.

My point about constantly bringing up how all three sets of tuning(mailed custom tunes) were 95% useable was to illustrate that there really isn't any suspense to be had with these injectors anymore.

Pick gh or php or whoever and its not an issue. Even with puny injectors lol.

 

[CurtisF]

People can argue all they want. And talk about how great their truck runs, I don't doubt it runs great, but there are pluses and minus to nozzle size. No perfect option. Anyone that takes the time to test these theories on a dyno will come to the same conclusion as everyone else that has tried.

No one has argued what you just posted.

What has been argued is to what DEGREE these advantages and disadvantages have an effect on the overall performance, emissions, etc. That's what superpsd was getting at in the statement that you quoted.

The thing is that this is a rhetorical argument that will go round and round with no answer. Why? The problem is that two things are not standardized: tuning and injector build quality.

Those two variances will have a far greater effect than the issue at hand - atomization between smaller and larger nozzles. Heck even the same tuner might have smaller nozzles nailed down, but suck at tuning larger nozzles (or vice versa). So what you propose on the dyno is an impossible task to begin with because it will NEVER be equally tested.

 

[superpsd]

Curtis nailed what I was going to reply. There's always going to be a compromise but to say a larger nozzle can't run well in a transformer truck (one that doubles as a daily driver and mild competition or towing rig) goes against what has already been done. In the end due to the many variables at hand on a 7.3 one guy will love a larger nozzled injector while the next may regret the decision and hate driving a larger nozzled 7.3 truck

 

[KCTurbos]

LOL... I sometimes wonder if we are all reading the same thread LOL



No arguing??? :morons: Have you read the last 18 pages of this thread?

Spin it, twist it, laugh at it, blame it on tuning, quality of nozzle, injector build quality, no way to test atomization, high speed cameras, how the whole setup comes together, accuse people of impossible scenarios (when you missed the whole point), imply people have never towed (even though they have), etc... etc... The whole point of this thread was that there is science to choosing your nozzle size, and that there are pluses and minus to each size. But you cant start an injector nozzle thread in the 7.3 section without the same 3-4 guys getting super defensive of their setups if anyone ever tries to talk about the advantages of smaller nozzles. When someone jumps in to say "kudos" for the great thread going over the science behind nozzle sizing... they get attacked by those same 3-4 guys.

It is not a "rhetorical argument" (some people are just trying to make it that way) In any actual test you perform using a dyno you will see that there are advantages and disadvantages... but you don't even really need a dyno, It is just basic diesel science. It is not some mystical science that can never be tested.




In recap


Many people are VERY happy with their 200% nozzles (even 400% nozzles)
Tuners/injector builders tend to push smaller nozzles for customers not looking to make big power because customers tend to be happier and have less issues.

Bigger nozzles are great. They have big advantages

Smaller nozzles are also great. They have different advantages

Bigger nozzles make more top end power (dump fuel faster)

Smaller nozzles make better tq and atmoization down low (higher ICP and more optimal window for dumping fuel during the stroke down low)

The "middle area" can be disputed because there is going to be a line that gets crossed where smaller nozzles lose the advantage down low, and bigger nozzles take over with their advantages.



My dyno is open to anyone who would like to test/prove/disprove these theories. Although there is NO PERFECT TEST in ANYTHING and results will vary. I venture to say that your results will be consistent with anyone else that has performed the test. I know I have said that multiple times (beating a dead horse), but it always seems guys are more willing to speculate/argue for 18 pages, rather than actually test theories in a controlled environment.

 

[TyCorr]

No one has argued what you just posted.

What has been argued is to what DEGREE these advantages and disadvantages have an effect on the overall performance, emissions, etc. That's what superpsd was getting at in the statement that you quoted.

The thing is that this is a rhetorical argument that will go round and round with no answer. Why? The problem is that two things are not standardized: tuning and injector build quality.

Those two variances will have a far greater effect than the issue at hand - atomization between smaller and larger nozzles. Heck even the same tuner might have smaller nozzles nailed down, but suck at tuning larger nozzles (or vice versa). So what you propose on the dyno is an impossible task to begin with because it will NEVER be equally tested.

Dont you think injector build quality can be addressed to a degree by a competent tuner? Especially if armed with some hard data?

 

[TyCorr]

LOL... I sometimes wonder if we are all reading the same thread LOL



No arguing??? :morons: Have you read the last 18 pages of this thread?

Spin it, twist it, laugh at it, blame it on tuning, quality of nozzle, injector build quality, no way to test atomization, high speed cameras, how the whole setup comes together, accuse people of impossible scenarios (when you missed the whole point), imply people have never towed (even though they have), etc... etc... The whole point of this thread was that there is science to choosing your nozzle size, and that there are pluses and minus to each size. But you cant start an injector nozzle thread in the 7.3 section without the same 3-4 guys getting super defensive of their setups if anyone ever tries to talk about the advantages of smaller nozzles. When someone jumps in to say "kudos" for the great thread going over the science behind nozzle sizing... they get attacked by those same 3-4 guys.

It is not a "rhetorical argument" (some people are just trying to make it that way) In any actual test you perform using a dyno you will see that there are advantages and disadvantages... but you don't even really need a dyno, It is just basic diesel science. It is not some mystical science that can never be tested.




In recap


Many people are VERY happy with their 200% nozzles (even 400% nozzles)
Tuners/injector builders tend to push smaller nozzles for customers not looking to make big power because customers tend to be happier and have less issues.

Bigger nozzles are great. They have big advantages

Smaller nozzles are also great. They have different advantages

Bigger nozzles make more top end power (dump fuel faster)

Smaller nozzles make better tq and atmoization down low (higher ICP and more optimal window for dumping fuel during the stroke down low)

The "middle area" can be disputed because there is going to be a line that gets crossed where smaller nozzles lose the advantage down low, and bigger nozzles take over with their advantages.



My dyno is open to anyone who would like to test/prove/disprove these theories. Although there is NO PERFECT TEST in ANYTHING and results will vary. I venture to say that your results will be consistent with anyone else that has performed the test. I know I have said that multiple times (beating a dead horse), but it always seems guys are more willing to speculate/argue for 18 pages, rather than actually test theories in a controlled environment.

What injectors do you build and sell? Additionally what 7.3 setups have you ran?

I keep hearing your comment about the dyno as well and it nakes me wanna spit up bile because it comes across like you just discovered the dyno and want to use one and nobody else has.

Not everyone lives in forum land. I did and bought 10 grand worth of parts to make 425hp lol with an injecyor that was supposed to go "right up near 500". They're fine but they're usable range is 300-400hp. Outside of that, too much pw and too much heat to make power. I discovered the myth that they use less hpo than an ad injector to be bs after hitting hills in hot tunes and setting icp codes when a 17 deg pump couldnt keep up. Like I said, i had all the support mods for a 600hp truck but could only output cleanly 410 give or take. That was tuning revisions and dyno time based research.

 

[cjfarm111]

I have said this before and will say it again. I'm no diesel genius or professional engine builder but having ran five different size injectors with multiple turbos and a couple different tuners my experience is this.......buy what fits your application. If you tow stay with an stock/30%/80% nozzle. Just in my little trial and errors I think people try to go with a big injector thinking they are making more "power" not usable horsepower. I did not like my 100% for towing so I stepped back down a little. I have never tried a 200% nozzle so I have no comment on those.

 

[KCTurbos]

What injectors do you build and sell? Additionally what 7.3 setups have you ran?

I keep hearing your comment about the dyno as well and it nakes me wanna spit up bile because it comes across like you just discovered the dyno and want to use one and nobody else has.

Not everyone lives in forum land. I did and bought 10 grand worth of parts to make 425hp lol with an injecyor that was supposed to go "right up near 500". They're fine but they're usable range is 300-400hp. Outside of that, too much pw and too much heat to make power. I discovered the myth that they use less hpo than an ad injector to be bs after hitting hills in hot tunes and setting icp codes when a 17 deg pump couldnt keep up. Like I said, i had all the support mods for a 600hp truck but could only output cleanly 410 give or take. That was tuning revisions and dyno time based research.

I don't sell injectors (although I have built a few)... and I don't sell tunes (even though I have written tunes). I sell turbos and work with enough tuners and injectors to know what they are pushing and why. I also sell enough turbos to hear the complaints that tend to follow certain injectors.


Hold your bile... I am sorry you feel that way. I am openly offering my dyno to anyone interested in testing this theory... to see for themselves the differences. Anyone can talk about what they "think" their truck is doing and how great it runs. But when they actually see indisputable data, there is no more arguing. Most are not willing to spend the money to rent a dyno for the weekend, $125/hr adds up really fast.

I am not the only one with a dyno, obviously. I am sure others in this very same thread also have a dyno... in fact. I am pretty sure PHP has a dyno and I am sure they have performed many of the same tests. I wonder what their data shows... oh wait... someone from PHP started this thread, and he already posted his information.



You pointed out that larger nozzles do better up top. I agree with you that larger nozzles will run cooler and make more power up top. Do you still have your dyno graphs? Did you simply swap injector nozzles and dyno again? Do you mind posting up your dyno graphs?

 

[CurtisF]

Dont you think injector build quality can be addressed to a degree by a competent tuner? Especially if armed with some hard data?

Not if you're trying to tune injectors from Pensacola Diesel.

Did I just say that out loud???? :morons:

Can't tune out bad builds. Build variants can be a challenge if you don't know exactly what you're dealing with. That's why some tuners have good luck with a certain brand, and another tuner has good luck with a different brand. But in the end, the variances will always be there and cannot be tuned out.

 

[CurtisF]

Hold your bile... I am sorry you feel that way. I am openly offering my dyno to anyone interested in testing this theory... to see for themselves the differences.

I just explained CLEARLY as to why this is impossible. It's not rocket science.

 

[superpsd]

One thing Jay said in post 1 was "More efficient burn = lower exhaust gas temperatures (EGT)"

If this is true which common sense would point in that direction then larger nozzles typically would be more effecient as they show lower EGTs cruising and pulling a load. However these larger nozzles have lower atomization and therefore should be more ineffecient =hotter egts? There are a few different processes for manufacturing larger nozzles of different sizes. There are also many different suppliers of nozzles. The manufacturing process and quality control likely varies a bit from manufacture to manufacture.