H-11s vs ARP's

[jdgleason]

That's incorrect.... You would actually have to pass the treshold where the stud starts to stretch which I imagine is pretty fn high to begain with... Also if the studs have higher tensil strength they will stretch less but are a stronger stud.. so to get the proper stretch and clamping force it should be tqd at a higher value... I would put money on the reasons h11st fail is the tq value is to low and the arps have higher clamping force..

Comparing torque specs on the 2 different studs is really apples to oranges. ARP uses their own moly lube, which gives them their torque spec.

Our studs use a different lube, with different properties. Different lubricity, different resistance, etc. This greatly effects the applied load of each stud. Thats why each company has their own, and has their own spec.

 

[jdgleason]

Why wont anyone acknowledge the fact that 4 studs per hole is just not enough when running these boost numbers. Dodges have 6 per cylinder running 12mm 625 AND fire rings to hold this kind of boost pressure and maintain reliability. Asking a flat head that is just decked to keep a seal on things at 80+ psi is a little much. Im sure the logical reading this would agree.

Agreed. Maybe 80+ psi is too much for the gasket to hold by itself. Whether it be black onyx, stock, Stock headbolt, custom age 625 etc. Maybe its time for fire rings...

 

[Craig@MFI]

:bs:
http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12021
Specifying the need to only loosen one at a time was not mentioned in this thread linked above since Anthony figured you would already understand that. Oops. There you go spreading rumors again about parts. Don't forget to mention that cylinder pressure, not boost is what lifts heads. Boost is only a contributor to cylinder pressure, so to say H-11's can't handle high boost is inaccurate, especially considering your track record of successful head gasket replacement jobs.

My track record of headgaskets.. Care to explain please
Only headgaskets I've had issues with we're race application as being my white 6.0

 

[forcefed6.4ford]

Maybe its time for fire rings...

Like I said before. This thread is gay.

 

[Craig@MFI]

Why wont anyone acknowledge the fact that 4 studs per hole is just not enough when running these boost numbers. Dodges have 6 per cylinder running 12mm 625 AND fire rings to hold this kind of boost pressure and maintain reliability. Asking a flat head that is just decked to keep a seal on things at 80+ psi is a little much. Im sure the logical reading this would agree.

My whole point through this whole thread was that my black truck hasnt puked one time with 80psi with arps yet mike blows his headgaskets first time he makes a pass wasn't bad mouthing anything was just stating a fact that we were taking them out and going to arp studs
No one person was bad mouthed...
I was just posting our findings.. The studs were torque to elite instructions that come in there boxes all steps were gone through careful only thing was we used arp lube because that's all we had
Sorry to cause a problem

 

[Craig@MFI]

Forcefed that wasn't point to you I don't know why it quoted it

 

[forcefed6.4ford]

All Im getting at is that everything has limits. Are these the limits of the H-11's. Possible. But high horse power trucks from the other manufacturers have more studs per cylinder and have been using fire ring to keep thing where they belong. I didnt say you were bashing anyone. You just prefer to use a different product and thats your prerogative. But perhaps its time to start thinking about other mods to help things live at these levels. 80psi is remarkable on just studs but we have to be realistic.

For the record I can make anything puke. Studded or not.

 

[Wayne]

That's incorrect....

If you were referring to the comment you were about to make, and I quoted below you were correct about yourself being incorrectointlaugh:

Easiest was to explain it is this way so let's say the h11s aren't stretched.... When I fastener is isntalled correctly it stretches this helps it and acts lile a spring if you will... So the arps are stretched... That's why they tell you to expect the stud to be .005 longer... So now im the h11s case its not stretched so when you get all that cylinder pressure on it.. its gonna over come the clqmping force because it doesn't a true preload on the fastner

^^^this logic is incorrect

When the H-11's are streched to 195 ft-lbs (using the supplied lube only- detroit diesel international compound #2 1#5198563) they are not deformed, they are streched. With the compound we provide, the studs are torqued to 75% of yield. A different lube/compound can alter the accuracy of load, so Elite DOES NOT RECOMMEND using any lube but what we supply (see description above) What lube did MPD use? I'd be willing to bet that it's not Elite spec'd., (probably ARP) and they wonder why the gaskets failed...:morons:

If an H-11, or any other stud for that matter is longer than before it was used the first time, it is deformed, and torqued beyond yield, therefore not going in any engine I would stand behind. Seeing as how ARP's are of a metal with less tensile strength, and torqued to higher specs then of course they'll be deformed. To me, using streched studs is no better than re-using stock head bolts. What do you do with factory TTY bolts after they've been removed? Well, I know what I do with them; throw them in the garbage, and get new ones.

Here's the science behind the 75% of yield, which Elite/ A-1 Technologies bases the torque specs.:
http://www.zerofast.com/torque.htm

 

[Craig@MFI]

So you think the different lube is what caused it ?

 

[Wayne]

My whole point through this whole thread was that my black truck hasnt puked one time with 80psi with arps yet mike blows his headgaskets first time he makes a pass wasn't bad mouthing anything was just stating a fact that we were taking them out and going to arp studs
No one person was bad mouthed...
I was just posting our findings.. The studs were torque to elite instructions that come in there boxes all steps were gone through careful only thing was we used arp lube because that's all we had
Sorry to cause a problem

Wow, definitely made a huge difference with some damn fuel lol, only downside is it puked the first pull, stupid h-11's, boost hit 90psi in od, egts hit 1600, Rp stayed at 169 on the sct

See the contradictions in red, blaming the studs as the problem.

Props for making good power etc, but going about it with a little class, and maybe asking what you could've done wrong, rather than blaming everything but yourselves would be a good place to start.

Were the studs all torqued evenly at the first level before they were individually cycled for seasoning? This is a rhetorical question as I don't expect you to answer truthfully. This is HUGE. the wrong lube is minor compared to loosening all head studs after they've compressed the gasket.

 

[INFAMOUS]

So you think the different lube is what caused it ?

Was it there old lube or the new ultra lube?

 

[Craig@MFI]

Just because I said stupid isnt bad mouthing

 

[Craig@MFI]

Yes we torque all to first spec and loosed and tightening 3 times than to final specs as in instructions
We used the new arp lube

 

[Extended Power]

So where does a fella find this lube for H11's? (I didn't have any to save for this time around.)

And the reason I bought the Ultra Torque was because of the consistancy of the torque readings per cycle.

My Cunningham rods are spec'd to be lubed with 80-90W gear oil ONLY, so I can see where using the wrong lube will give false torque readings.

 

[White_monster]

So where does a fella find this lube for H11's? (I didn't have any to save for this time around.)

And the reason I bought the Ultra Torque was because of the consistancy of the torque readings per cycle.

My Cunningham rods are spec'd to be lubed with 80-90W gear oil ONLY, so I can see where using the wrong lube will give false torque readings.

Go to a Detroit Diesel dealer and get the lube Wayne listed, it's that simple.

 

[INFAMOUS]

Yes we torque all to first spec and loosed and tightening 3 times than to final specs as in instructions
We used the new arp lube

A-1 Technologies has tested both lube's. They said that the new lube is actually "not as slick" then the old lube. If the new Ultra torque lube was used on the H-11 studs, It would require more torque to get the same clamping force.

 

[oneturboforme]

Wayne elite teach you to copy in paste.. kinda like there intake that's half of dougs design.... You posted a chart thay shows a nf 9/16 grade 8 should be 186.... Grade 8 is only 150000psi tension stength... That makes sense

 

[Wayne]

So where does a fella find this lube for H11's? (I didn't have any to save for this time around.)

And the reason I bought the Ultra Torque was because of the consistancy of the torque readings per cycle.

My Cunningham rods are spec'd to be lubed with 80-90W gear oil ONLY, so I can see where using the wrong lube will give false torque readings.

Ivan: Cunningham uses A-1 for bolts, and Elite's last batch of Cunningham rods came with the Detroit Diesel lube I listed above... something to keep in mind.

 

[White_monster]

Cunningham uses what bolts you order Wayne. You can request ARP, h11's, custom age and many others as well. If his rods require 80-90w gear oil then use that. Just cause one person uses the same part and it says to use something different doesn't mean you should not follow the instructions for your parts.

 

[Wayne]

Wayne elite teach you to copy in paste.. kinda like there intake that's half of dougs design.... You posted a chart thay shows a nf 9/16 grade 8 should be 186.... Grade 8 is only 150000psi tension stength... That makes sense

Care to explain? Coming from an MPD nut swinger:lame: it's pretty bold to make claims about copying designs.

The chart I posted a link to only shows the standardized engineering concept (I found through google) of torquing bolts to 75% yield. To my knowledge, this is not the source or website A-1 uses to come up with torque specs.