H-11s vs ARP's

4tonGT40 · Jan 25, 2012

SPARTAN said:
Sounds like some of these are in order...http://www.elitedieselengineering.com/product/14005003/HD-Custom-Age-625-Head-Stud-Kit/

ARP! Been around a million years. Nothing against H11's I'm sure they are fine too, but I go with what's been around longer.IMO

lubeowner · Jan 25, 2012

So your saying torqueing the h-11 headstuds in The American Ride to 300 using arp ultra lube was a bad idea?

BFT · Jan 25, 2012

4tonGT40 said:
ARP! Been around a million years. Nothing against H11's I'm sure they are fine too, but I go with what's been around longer.IMO

ummm... A1 technoligies has been around longer the ARP

Extended Power · Jan 25, 2012

lubeowner said:
So your saying torqueing the h-11 headstuds in The American Ride to 300 using arp ultra lube was a bad idea?

At what point do they snap though??? 301??

Craig@MFI · Jan 25, 2012

Yes block holes were cleaned out we do headstuds jobs everyday

BFT · Jan 25, 2012

just making sure.

lubeowner · Jan 25, 2012

Extended Power said:
At what point do they snap though??? 301??

Don't know. I do know that arps did not break at 400.

lubeowner · Jan 26, 2012

Since this thread seemed to have died....I will post up my thinking on bolts/studs. Now I know that this is hillbilly and probably lacks any science to back it up but here is my theory. If a truck is pressurizing the coolant you are giving up some compression and thus leaving power on the table. So it has to be stopped, in competition at really all costs. So experimentation must happen or nothing will ever change. Also my idea is that once a bolt/studs tensile strength is comprised it will either stretch or break. So when torquing a bolt you will be able to see on the torque wrench once you hit that point as the torque with stop increasing or will even go down as you tighten it. The problem is once you reach this point there is no going back and new studs need installed. I always have a backup set when I try this stuff. If the coolant is pressurizing you have to increase the clamping force. If the torque value is going up on the wrench then clamping force should be increasing.

The American Ride has H-11 head studs. Torqued at 195 ft/pounds the truck would puke. So the next time I set them to 220. It starting pressurizing the coolant at this setting. So I increased torque on them the next time to 300. So far this has seemed to work. Now for how long I don't know. But what I know is the torque value is still going up as I torqued them. If this doesn't hold I will increase the torque even higher until it holds or something breaks.

Extended Power · Jan 26, 2012

What lube are you using jeremy?
Like mentioned somewhere here, or on a website elsewhere...if a person doesnt put lube under the head of the nut, the nut will try to cut into the head, severely changing the amount of torque required to turn the nut.
So if we are using slipperyer lube...and the nut has less drag on the head because it is slipping, instead of cutting........chit...I lost where i was going with this...

oneturboforme · Jan 26, 2012

Man this is gonna start this tread again.... So a_1 studs are the same material as arp2000 they ate not h11s here the email I got back from them... Looks like someone is trying to upgrade a product to something its not...

Kyle,

Unfortunately, someone has caused some confusion on the particular product for which you are inquiring. The material of the current A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head stud kit we manufacture is made from AMS6304 also know as 17-22A, as requested by our original distributor. This is the same material that ARP uses and renames ARP2000. Now for the torque, I am guessing that the 310 ft. lbs. you mention below that ARP calls out for their 6.4 head stud is a typo and you meant 210 ft. lbs. If not I honestly cannot give you any logical explanation for the 310 ft. lb. as that makes no sense to use such a torque for that stud. If the 310 ft. lbs. of torque is used my guess is that it would yield the ARP stud causing permanent stretch and making it a one-time use “torque to yield fastener”. That is only my opinion based on physical properties and logic but I cannot nor do I imply to speak for them. If you look at an older ARP catalog you will see that for their ARP2000 material, 220,000 psi in 5/8” stud they called out 208 ft. lbs. using their ARP moly lube, which seems reasonable. I can also tell you that their torque values have changed as their new “ARP ultra torque” assembly lube is less efficient, (not as slick) and requires more torque to achieve the same result of stretch / clamp-load, but even with the change in lube 310 ft. lbs. seems beyond extreme.

Finally, to help you with the performance of the A1 head studs, if you use our recommended lube, International Compound #2, you can torque the A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head studs made from 17-22A to 205 - 210 ft. lbs. This will give you a substantial increase in clamp-load on the stud, compared to the 180 ft. lb. torque you mentioned and should eliminate any further gasket problems.

If you have any questions or we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us any time.

Don Trapp

Director of Sales

MINK · Jan 26, 2012

Hm good info straight from A1 - thanks for sharing

Jeff@Spartan · Jan 26, 2012

oneturboforme said:
Man this is gonna start this tread again.... So a_1 studs are the same material as arp2000 they ate not h11s here the email I got back from them... Looks like someone is trying to upgrade a product to something its not...

Kyle,

Unfortunately, someone has caused some confusion on the particular product for which you are inquiring. The material of the current A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head stud kit we manufacture is made from AMS6304 also know as 17-22A, as requested by our original distributor. This is the same material that ARP uses and renames ARP2000. Now for the torque, I am guessing that the 310 ft. lbs. you mention below that ARP calls out for their 6.4 head stud is a typo and you meant 210 ft. lbs. If not I honestly cannot give you any logical explanation for the 310 ft. lb. as that makes no sense to use such a torque for that stud. If the 310 ft. lbs. of torque is used my guess is that it would yield the ARP stud causing permanent stretch and making it a one-time use “torque to yield fastener”. That is only my opinion based on physical properties and logic but I cannot nor do I imply to speak for them. If you look at an older ARP catalog you will see that for their ARP2000 material, 220,000 psi in 5/8” stud they called out 208 ft. lbs. using their ARP moly lube, which seems reasonable. I can also tell you that their torque values have changed as their new “ARP ultra torque” assembly lube is less efficient, (not as slick) and requires more torque to achieve the same result of stretch / clamp-load, but even with the change in lube 310 ft. lbs. seems beyond extreme.

Finally, to help you with the performance of the A1 head studs, if you use our recommended lube, International Compound #2, you can torque the A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head studs made from 17-22A to 205 - 210 ft. lbs. This will give you a substantial increase in clamp-load on the stud, compared to the 180 ft. lb. torque you mentioned and should eliminate any further gasket problems.

If you have any questions or we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us any time.

Don Trapp

Director of Sales

So what I am gathering from this is that the Director of Sales at A1 Technologies says that they don't make H-11 head studs for the 6.4L Power Stroke? They only make 17-22A, which is the same exact material as the ARP2000 head stud....hmmmm.

That would make perfect sense to me if there weren't numerous shops on this very forum selling H-11 head studs. So either a bunch of shops are confused or this guy from A1 is confused.

derrick36 · Jan 26, 2012

Yeah, but couldn't that be something where they ONLY make H11's for Elite and no one else?

That could be the reason he's only mentioning the ones that are the same as ARP.

Jeff@Spartan · Jan 26, 2012

derrick36 said:
Yeah, but couldn't that be something where they ONLY make H11's for Elite and no one else?

That could be the reason he's only mentioning the ones that are the same as ARP.

I believe Wide Open Performance carries H-11 studs for the 6.4L and I know Rudy stocks them.

Dustball8504 · Jan 26, 2012

I'd like to see a torture test between these.

oneturboforme · Jan 26, 2012

He said the only 6.4 stud they make is that material... and rudy sells them bc they sell elite parts... Im not point fingers in saying someone messed up somewhere and a1 studs aren't h11s

oneturboforme · Jan 26, 2012

Someone should try what he suggested and up the tq value and see if that helps since there the same material as arps it should right? And this statement is only if the a1 guy is correct

Jeff@Spartan · Jan 26, 2012

oneturboforme said:
He said the only 6.4 stud they make is that material... and rudy sells them bc they sell elite parts... Im not point fingers in saying someone messed up somewhere and a1 studs aren't h11s

Going off of last night, it looks like finger pointing to me. lol

Wide Open Performance is not an Elite dealer and they sell H-11 studs by A1 Technologies for the 6.4L.

http://wideopenperformance.net/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=296_288_287_276&products_id=979

oneturboforme · Jan 26, 2012

Well maybe they are confused about what they really are.getting with there studs... From the responce i got from a1 he looked like he knew what he was talking about... There could be a mistake and wop and the other guys could be thinking there getting h11s but aren't... Who knows who's wrong on this but why would a a1 guy Say there not h11s.. kinda would make his company look bad don't you think? Either way someone should up the tq on there studs and see if it helps, ofcourse thats to the guys with high hp big compound setups

jdgleason · Jan 26, 2012

oneturboforme said:
Man this is gonna start this tread again.... So a_1 studs are the same material as arp2000 they ate not h11s here the email I got back from them... Looks like someone is trying to upgrade a product to something its not...

Kyle,

Unfortunately, someone has caused some confusion on the particular product for which you are inquiring. The material of the current A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head stud kit we manufacture is made from AMS6304 also know as 17-22A, as requested by our original distributor. This is the same material that ARP uses and renames ARP2000. Now for the torque, I am guessing that the 310 ft. lbs. you mention below that ARP calls out for their 6.4 head stud is a typo and you meant 210 ft. lbs. If not I honestly cannot give you any logical explanation for the 310 ft. lb. as that makes no sense to use such a torque for that stud. If the 310 ft. lbs. of torque is used my guess is that it would yield the ARP stud causing permanent stretch and making it a one-time use “torque to yield fastener”. That is only my opinion based on physical properties and logic but I cannot nor do I imply to speak for them. If you look at an older ARP catalog you will see that for their ARP2000 material, 220,000 psi in 5/8” stud they called out 208 ft. lbs. using their ARP moly lube, which seems reasonable. I can also tell you that their torque values have changed as their new “ARP ultra torque” assembly lube is less efficient, (not as slick) and requires more torque to achieve the same result of stretch / clamp-load, but even with the change in lube 310 ft. lbs. seems beyond extreme.

Finally, to help you with the performance of the A1 head studs, if you use our recommended lube, International Compound #2, you can torque the A1 Ford 6.4 ltr. head studs made from 17-22A to 205 - 210 ft. lbs. This will give you a substantial increase in clamp-load on the stud, compared to the 180 ft. lb. torque you mentioned and should eliminate any further gasket problems.

If you have any questions or we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us any time.

Don Trapp

Director of Sales

This statement from Don is correct. The material that our studs are made from is 17-22A. Elite Diesel is the original distributor of these studs as well. At the time that Elite spec'd these studs, ARP's preliminary plans were to use a material called 8740 which is weaker than the 17-22A that we originally spec'd. Their plans were changed after our design plans were in. We wanted to be a step ahead of ARP, so we knew we needed to stay ahead of them. Obviously, their design plans changed. There were 2 additional reasons that our studs were spec'd the way that they were. First off, we have H-11 studs available for the 6.0s. They are true H-11 material. The 17-22A studs share the SAME clamp load as the 6.0 H-11 studs due to the larger size of the 6.4 stud. With our experience and success with the 6.0 heads, we didnt see a need for more clamping force in 90% of trucks. For the other small percentage of trucks, we have our true custom aged 625 studs.

The other reason that the 17-22A was chosen, was because of cost. The larger, H-11 stud would have been much more expensive for the consumer. This was a good compromise between performance and cost, especially with the 625 studs that we have available.

On behalf of everyone here at Elite Diesel, I want to apologize for the misconception on our studs. To be fair, we do not, nor have we ever advertised our studs as H-11. I believe it was a misconception due to our 6.0 studs. We were known for having our own H-11 6.0 studs, so the correlation between the two was easy to make for many people. We still stand behind the quality and integrity of the stud, and use them in all of our builds here at the shop.

SPARTAN said:
So what I am gathering from this is that the Director of Sales at A1 Technologies says that they don't make H-11 head studs for the 6.4L Power Stroke? They only make 17-22A, which is the same exact material as the ARP2000 head stud....hmmmm.

That would make perfect sense to me if there weren't numerous shops on this very forum selling H-11 head studs. So either a bunch of shops are confused or this guy from A1 is confused.

I can not speak for any other shop. I can tell you that Don knows what he is talking about.