Rough running, codes etc...

[Chvyrkr]

Have you ohm'd out the injector circuits in question?

You can do a quick check at the UVCH connectors, but doing it from the IDM connector will tell the whole story.

Let me know if you need any diagrams or connector views.

This ^^^^, and maybe the TB BigAl posted.

FWIW, I get a 1316 with my modded IDM, with no specific cylinder codes after a buzz test or CCT.

Also, FWIW, I've had more issues out of the main PCM/IDM to engine harness than I have out of the UVCH.

I think it's time to get out that multimeter.

 

[907DAVE]

Do you happen to know the compression numbers on the truck? I was having similar problems awhile ago and Dave at Swamp's told me that once flow rate on an injector is increased cct tests should be taken with a grain of salt. After all you're running a cylinder contribution test, not injector balance tests, so if your cylinders vary greatly by compression, this might be causing the problem. Just an idea though.

Also, I'm assuming your convertor is fine as I see you have a BTS, but crappy convertors in autos have been known to cause cct problems....but that is much less likely. (Also information I picked up from Dave.)

This does not explain the injector circuit codes though. Those codes are purely electrical and the truck does not even have to be running to set them.

 

[TARM]

Yep I am 99% sure its electrical somewhere at this point. That is why I posted all the data from all the tests so we could see a common link that would explain all of it. Now I know the clips did not go back on the UVH so that maybe it. But the fact I am getting errors that seem to stem from both banks maybe be pointing more to a issue with the harness going to the IDM. While it certainly possible both UVH have pulled loose I am guessing its more probable to look where both banks meet together which would be external of the valve covers.

Question: Since all the injectors were clearly heard in the buzz test even though I have the high to low codes doesn't this indicate that all the injectors are at least connected but that there is a loose connection that is not allowing the full voltage to be sent thru? Does that make any sense or am I missing tech on how they work?

I really apprecaite the help guys.

 

[golfer]

if you don't have a CEL/SES light on all the time..then the wiring to/from the injs to the IDM is fine.

as someone previously posted with the loose poppet screw...

armature to solenoid clearance issues will cause a disruption in the magnetic/gauss field and can store IDM codes...

basically the IDM can monitor current to the injectors...and if the armature/solenoid clearances aren't correct...then the magnetic field is disrupted causing the IDM to transfer more current down that 'channel'...

so you can have a mechanical problem with a inj(s), that would explain (all of) these issues.

but no SES/CEL means no wiring issue...as confirmed by audibly hearing all 8 injs buzz.

FWIW, our HV/HF IDM's can often exacerbate these types of symptoms related to the injs...since there will be more current available to go down a channel to an injector that is out of spec in that area...sometimes customers with high mileage injectors (or injs with poppet/solenoid clearance issues) will often have a ghost/intermittent SES light as well...

if the truck runs good (smooth) when you roll into the pedal, and you just have a choppy idle and these non critical codes..I wouldn't worry about driving the truck...just get the injs sorted out when you get back should nothing else turn up as the cause.

 

[TARM]

Dave,



Thank you for posting. Hoping you would eventually pop in.


TO answer your questions. No I have a HARD CEL on all the time. I clear the codes and as soon as I start back up the CEL comes right back on. There is nothing interment about it. So does this point more to wiring connection issue? It does not run like crap once past idle but I am thinking it could run better. Its one of these situation where its the first set of tunes so its difficult as you have nothing for comparison. It does smoke more than I think it should even with moderate pedal. At idle its has a bit of a roll with RPMs fluctuating about 50rpm according to AE and its just off a bit.



I do not know if this is at all helpful but when I first pulled the codes I also had a parking assist code and noticed it just stopped working and I also had one code about sensing the tran gear shift position not being detected for park or neutral. Something to that effect. But after I cleared them all those never came back so I just dismissed them as irrelevant. But if this is electrical maybe that is somehow helpful in pointing to where the issue might be or at what connection point. I am probably reaching but figured it couldn't hurt to mention.





On edit: the last time I had codes pulled I had just stopped by a PEp boys as it was close. Not sure what scanner they had but it did pick up the glow plug and IAH etc stuff but it did not pick up any of the other stuff including the stuff about parking or gear shift. I am also 100% there was also nothing about a IDM error either as I wrote each code down. Maybe I knocked something or somehow caused a short while installing the hpop as I had to take out the old dual stealth and it was really tight to get out.

 

[TARM]

OK I ran Some ICP/IPR data and it actually looks fairly good.



ICP when first started cold was in the mid 700s then as it warmed dropped to 680-690 It is varying no more than 10 points. The IPR % holding steady at about 17%



Honestly the engine is idling a bit better today go figure. I still had a P1316 and I will run a contribution test one more time to see if anything has changed. I looked at each of the connectors as best I could along with the exposed wire ends at each one and there is no obvious damage or shorts. Its all actually looks good.



Even with the slow orgin stock starter it still starts with in a couple cranks so starts as good as it did stock. The engine only has 100K on it and those were very easy miles. No chip nothing. Trans still shifts like new.



OK still getting same trouble codes for contribution and buzz. As the oil warmed up more ICP:530 variation of 5-8 psi IPR:14% variation of .05-.1% PW 1.30ms variation of .03-.04ms EOT 150F



It does haze lightly at idle.



Should be able to start testing wiring soon.

 

[golfer]

constant CEL??

but (you sure?!?) you heard all 8 injectors buzz?

rerun the buzz test

if they all buzz and sound similar...no idea.

IPR% sounds about 50% higher than it should be IMO (10-12% at idle is normal)...

the only thing I could think is that there COULD be a poppet problem that is causing a leak of HPOil...as well as a disturbance to the magnetic field.

 

[TARM]

Those ICP I first ran were on a cold engine. They dropped down to 530psi and 14% once oil temp started to come up.



I reran the buzzer test and I clearly counted 8 injector buzzes along with the first all group buzz They are plenty loud I can hear them no issue in the cab with the window up. The only sound dif I think is just from them moving from one bank to the other. All are loud and crisp.

 

[TARM]

I have had a glow plug module ( I have that damned Calf module instead of relay in the X) code I think for a long time. That use to give me a intermittent hard CEL. It would stay on for about a 3 days to maybe a week then be gone for months. Now I am getting a constant Code for that and #6 glow plug. Is there ANY WAY that module could be causing some type of issue here. I can not see how but figured I would ask. I have heard people have strange issues/symptoms from glow plug systems that has never made sense to me so I figured maybe.

 

[golfer]

you're right I think...I'm pretty sure the GPCM trucks (& Excursions) will throw a hard SES light related to the GPCM and/or GPs...

on the IPR%...if anything...colder oil should require less IPR% since it's much more thick.

since all 8 buzzed...I'll say that the GPCM/GP issue is causing the SES light..and you just have some inj issues related to the rough running (assuming the engine is sound).

as long as it isn't pissing white smoke...take the trip...you'll be fine.

 

[TARM]

OK I appreciate it. I am actually going to Pigeon Forge, TN to take the kids to dolly wood and do some hiking etc.. I think you guys are only about 3 hrs from there as its around the Knoxville area. If I called and scheduled something do you think you guys maybe be able to take a look at it and see what ya think. Regardless I would love the opportunity to see your shop and you guys. Never realized you were only a few hours from pigeon forge or I would have come by years ago as we use a week of our timeshare there every year in the spring before kids get out and the place becomes a madhouse..

 

[golfer]

yeah...we're probably closer to 3.5hrs from PF...but close enough!

shoot me an email with the expected date you will be coming down, and I'll get with the Reed (shop svc writer) to make sure we have a spot for you.

take care~

Dave

 

[TARM]

Thanks will do this evening. I appreciate it. You will have to ignore some of a jerry rigged things I have from doing some part swapping. LOL

 

[Fl Stroker]

Sounds like you will be in good hands. Dave and team will get you squared away for sure.

 

[PowerstrokeJunkie]

Dumb question maybe, how old is the fuel in the tank, has it been sitting all winter?

 

[TARM]

Fuel is a little old but not much and I did add additive to my fuel that prevents most issues. But I very much appreciate the idea even if its a less likely possibility.

I did get another code I did not list and think it was part of a new issue I ended up with.

I had gotten a code P1705- Trans. Range not indicating park or neutral during test. This is almost always the TRS that is on the trans drivers side and the shifter linkage goes to it. After driving it some I started to get a stumble and surge when taking off from a stop. One time it even stalled. The funny thing was the idle actually had improved some when this started to happen. Not perfect but a bit better.

This was somewhat overshadowed by a bone head mistake I made. Matt had sent me a new tune to burn to see if he could tune the idle quality better. I have a TS burner. Put the chip in. As I only wanted to change the first position tune without thinking I chose position 1 in the program did a erase, program, verify. Issue being that the program uses that choice to tell it what the total number of positions you have on your chip not the position you want to program. Its actually somewhat confusing but I know better. That basically unformatted the rest of the chip and likely made even the first tune position somewhat screwy. So when I installed it I ended up with no start in all the other positions and had to reset the key to get it to start even in position 1. So who knows how much that was screwing with things while I was driving it the last test drive.

Nearest Ford dealer is 25-30 miles from me out here. I figured to save a ton of fuel I would just pick up anything I could possibility need short of Injectors or IDM etc. I picked up:

8 Glow Plugs
1 Glow Plug Module (damn are they $$$$ compared to a relay)
2 Under Valve Cover Harness
1 Transmission Range Sensor

Clerk said I can return anything I do not use. That gets added to the new IPR and ICP. That's a very quick way to spend $800+ even with my fleet discount. :fustrate: Hopefully I will not need much of it. But we all know how that goes.:doh:

I got the chip reprogrammed correctly now so that goes back in. I am pulling the IDM connectors to check all the electrical and will replace anything I find. If I pull the VC all the GP will be replaced as I#6 is showing a code.

 

[TARM]

Update:

Did the full set of IDM tests BigAlsPSD Posted Links to.

Pulled the IDM connector.

Test 1: Resistance between banks power feed and each injectors ground

Driver Side Bank: Power Feed Pin 23

Injector 2: 23/22 = 2.8
Injector 4: 23/07 = 2.8
Injector 6: 23/19 = 2.8
Injector 8: 23/09 = 2.8

Passenger Side Bank: Power Feed Pin 24

Injector 1: 24/06 = 2.9
Injector 3: 24/21 = 2.9
Injector 5: 24/08 = 2.9
Injector 7: 24/20 = 2.9

Test 2: Each banks power feed pin to IDM Ground Pin Checking for short

Driver Side Bank 23/26 = Open

Passenger Side Bank 24/26 = Open


Test 3: Resistance Banks Power Feed and Banks Ground Shield

Driver Side Bank: 23/18 = Open

Passenger Side Bank: 24/18 = Open


As far as I can see this means all electrical wires and connections from the IDM to each injector are good. No shorts grounds etc..

This rules out electrical and the IDM.

Gonna Pull the IPR even though its new from Ford. Make sure its tight and did not some how get clogged.

I swapped out the glow plug module.

Installed the properly formatted chip.

We will what effects all of this has on idle and codes.

 

[caladash]

I just dealt with the same exact crap you are going through on my X. Mines a 2000 with 180,000 bone stock. Using a CTS for gauges. I changed and checked one thing at a time. Ended up swapping out the drivers side uvch and gasket (have 4 extra) and used some dielectric grease on the 40 pin connector. High to low opens went away and truck grew a set of balls. Both harnesses have the 50 cent mod!! The only light on the dash is the "service engine soon" light because of that damn gpcm. Truck wouldn't even move out of it's own way. Ended up getting it towed. A little over 300 miles and all is still good. Also running a dark gray CPS from International.

 

[TARM]

Unfortunately you see all those tests I just ran completely rule out any UVCH or any wiring harness or connectors all the way back to the actual IDM. That along with a new SP1 HPOP, IPR and ICP. I also replaced the GPCM as I had a code for that. AS far as codes go I have left that need replacing parts. I have a bad glow plug cyl 6 and the TRS (transmission range sensor) That should clear everything outside of the injector tests.

Did get some good news today though. Brian @ BTS called and said my tranny rebuild is finished and Tina or Patti will be calling me on Monday to setup shipping it out to me. This was its first rebuild since it Brian first built it 5 yrs ago and 200K. He completely rebuilt it along with $2K in upgraded parts.

 

[TARM]

Well its a good thing I went and did a doubt check on the IPR. Got up there to look down in the valley and I see what looks like a nut laying there. Hmmmm I guess I forgot to tighten the top IPR nut fully. :doh: Can you say stupid!>! The nut and the IPR sleeve were laying in the valley. I cleaned them up and put them back on. This time made it good and tight. I think that was the reason for the stalling and surging. LOL


I reran the injector tests and now there is only 2 cyl showing up on the Contribution test. Number 1 dropped off. Only 2 & 8 so that is good. The idle is a bit better that it was. Some of that I think it Matts tune. It runs somewhat better as well. Still I think I do have some issue. I will be pulling the VC after I get back from my trip.