Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[ja_cain]

Anyone want to take a guess at what might improve cold weather starting/idling at low oil temps? I know that fuel atomization decreases (droplet size increases) significantly as viscosity increases. Even though he said he increased icp, it still might not be on par with the smaller nozzles at low temps. That being said, the fact that the truck does better once he removes the chip is confusing. Can you change the amount of time the gp's and intake air heater stay on in the tuning?

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[mandkole]

I don't know what the secret is, but if I pull the chip the stock file on the PCM does not smoke that I recall, so whatever it is, it's my fault.

Is your PCM file for single shots? Could you confirm your earlier chip pull result? Ive tried it, and Bill has the PW increased a bit and the ICP is bumped to 800 or so. My truck is definitely quieter with the chip pulled and the ICP goes back to 550.

Anyone want to take a guess at what might improve cold weather starting/idling at low oil temps? I know that fuel atomization decreases (droplet size increases) significantly as viscosity increases. Even though he said he increased icp, it still might not be on par with the smaller nozzles at low temps. That being said, the fact that the truck does better once he removes the chip is confusing. Can you change the amount of time the gp's and intake air heater stay on in the tuning?

Lets talk about how the injector responds with cold oil. Is it slower responding and firing later? With all Bills files, my PW comes up quite a bit when first started-- Ive seen PW as high as 2.2 then it drops quickly as the oil warms. Its still 1.5-1.6 at 80-100F. when in park. Its smoky for the first few minutes on a cold start, but GPs are on the list anyway for a check.

 

[Charles]

I remembered to take a video this morning. This is the smoke I'm trying to cure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiea6kSIg-c&feature=youtu.be

It runs real well. I just wish I could get the haze to stop. I never cared before, so I have never tried to figure it out, therefore I have no experience with it.

Fwiw, I have AE, but scanner's do not show timing, so while I could look at a stock file for an AEB pcm, usually the timing actually being implemented goes through so many adders and modifiers and bs that you usually couldn't say for much of a damn what it actually is by the time it leaves the PCM and heads down to the IDM. If I cared more and had more time I would scope it. For now the issue is minor, so effort matches.

 

[907DAVE]

Heres a couple of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTkcZPZEhUs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN5R9vDB3PY

Neither were taken in very cold temps though, the videos were just to show idle stability with large nozzles.

 

[DZL JIM]

I began to wonder why ever other person I talked to on the phone the past few weeks was asking about using 200% nozzles, so I did some digging. I could have guessed it was more real life experience from Charles.

Tim saved me a bunch of typing.

Charles I'm not going to argue this point with you again, but someone needs to put some disclaimer in here.

What you have for a combo will not work for most people. I have been through this sooooo many times.

When we get calls about how a customer needs us to look at their injectors because they are having smoke and egt issues like crazy and their tuner tells them it's their injectors.

MOST people don't need a 200% for a tow truck or simple daily driver. Can they make them work? Absolutely they can. But I have worked with many top tuners for YEARS! Some are scared to put a customer in anything with more than a 30% nozzle. It was like pulling teeth to get them to recommend even an 80% to people. Until we showed them that a good amount of fuel can be injected through an 80% in a short pw.

99.9% of these people can not/do not do their own tuning and are at the mercy of these tuners. Some of which still to this day call for up to 6ms of pw for injectors we build that can empty in 3.2ms. Until more people MASTER the ability to tune their own trucks I will continue to lead them in the direction of a product that has been proven to do exactly what they call and ask for.
A 30% nozzle has a very good place in the HEUI injector world. Same goes for 80%, we have done some amazing things with our 175/80's for the daily driver/tow rig market.

Have a good day all!

I can't agree more.

 

[mandkole]

Neither were taken in very cold temps though, the videos were just to show idle stability with large nozzles.

They do idle good. When you brought the throttle up at idle to 2500 or so in the idle vid, whats that light chop when returning to idle.. Im not trying to control nearly as much nozzle, but mine has always done the same thing. Kinda drops below target idle and returns to it.

 

[psduser1]

I began to wonder why ever other person I talked to on the phone the past few weeks was asking about using 200% nozzles, so I did some digging. I could have guessed it was more real life experience from Charles.

Tim saved me a bunch of typing.



I can't agree more.

Smaller nozzles are definitely easier to control/tune for the guy paying someone else to tune for him.

 

[ja_cain]

Is your PCM file for single shots? Could you confirm your earlier chip pull result? Ive tried it, and Bill has the PW increased a bit and the ICP is bumped to 800 or so. My truck is definitely quieter with the chip pulled and the ICP goes back to 550.



Lets talk about how the injector responds with cold oil. Is it slower responding and firing later? With all Bills files, my PW comes up quite a bit when first started-- Ive seen PW as high as 2.2 then it drops quickly as the oil warms. Its still 1.5-1.6 at 80-100F. when in park. Its smoky for the first few minutes on a cold start, but GPs are on the list anyway for a check.

I know my truck (stock everything) starts out with higher icp. Not sure what the pw does though. Need to datalog icp, pw and oil temp so I can see how they all correlate. I would think that changing to a good synthetic with better low temp flow characteristics and bumping icp (along with some slight timing tweaks) would reduce the amount of smoke at startup on colder days. I still think that fuel viscosity at lower temps still might play a roll, especially with these larger nozzles.

 

[ja_cain]

Heres a couple of mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTkcZPZEhUs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN5R9vDB3PY

Neither were taken in very cold temps though, the videos were just to show idle stability with large nozzles.

Idle sounds great. Btw, what oil do you run? Also, do you add anything to your fuel?

 

[PABowhunter]

I began to wonder why ever other person I talked to on the phone the past few weeks was asking about using 200% nozzles, so I did some digging. I could have guessed it was more real life experience from Charles.

Tim saved me a bunch of typing.



I can't agree more.

If the theory behind what Charles is saying about 200% nozzles is correct, shouldn't the main 7.3 tuners have a pretty good handle on them by now? Or do you find that there are too many variables between individual trucks?

 

[lincolnlocker]

Haul the laptop with you and pull up Dave's files for bathroom perusal so you'll find the time. LOL

He's our age. I loved how that truck ran.

Yep

And yep.


Entertaining read tonight.

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whats our age?

Anyone want to take a guess at what might improve cold weather starting/idling at low oil temps? I know that fuel atomization decreases (droplet size increases) significantly as viscosity increases. Even though he said he increased icp, it still might not be on par with the smaller nozzles at low temps. That being said, the fact that the truck does better once he removes the chip is confusing. Can you change the amount of time the gp's and intake air heater stay on in the tuning?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

who runs the intake heater still?

If the theory behind what Charles is saying about 200% nozzles is correct, shouldn't the main 7.3 tuners have a pretty good handle on them by now? Or do you find that there are too many variables between individual trucks?

the bigger the nozzle the more it tattles on the motor being healthy or not.

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[ja_cain]

whats our age?

who runs the intake heater still?

the bigger the nozzle the more it tattles on the motor being healthy or not.

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

Ty was just saying a while back, how important the intake heater is in colder climates. Lol! You just took the words out of my mouth on the 200% exacerbating variances in different motors. Now I can ****** my post. Lol! The real key, in my opinion, is the ability to tune your own truck or have someone readily available to live tune it at any given time.

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[lincolnlocker]

Ty was just saying a while back, how important the intake heater is in colder climates. Lol! You just took the words out of my mouth on the 200% exacerbating variances in different motors. Now I can ****** my post. Lol! The real key, in my opinion, is the ability to tune your own truck or have someone readily available to like tune it at any given time.

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heater does help eliminate a lil cold start smoke but not much. also blocks 20% of the air flow..

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[cbf9703]

whats our age?

For the general group I was referring to... In our 30s, which actually makes us part of the older group compared to all the youngins on here.... What's scary is the number of members that were just starting to legally drive when Charlie made that video that Justin commented on him sounding so young in. LOL

Derail complete.

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[m j]

I bought 350/200s and g.e.a.r.head tunes and it daily drove awesome on a well abused motor
Daves idle is was nicer then mine IMO as it sounds less angry

I dont have experience with a smaller injector but I dont see any reason to go smaller

 

[lincolnlocker]

For the general group I was referring to... In our 30s, which actually makes us part of the older group compared to all the youngins on here.... What's scary is the number of members that were just starting to legally drive when Charlie made that video that Justin commented on him sounding so young in. LOL

Derail complete.

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holy crap.. yup, feel old now.. thx frank

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[PABowhunter]

For guys doing their own tuning, do you find yourself tweaking tunes as different components (i.e. injectors, hpop, etc) get worn?

I'd like to get my hands on this software at some point. Just need to make the time and not have it sit in the garage for years without using it.

 

[Charles]

For guys doing their own tuning, do you find yourself tweaking tunes as different components (i.e. injectors, hpop, etc) get worn?

I'd like to get my hands on this software at some point. Just need to make the time and not have it sit in the garage for years without using it.

No. Once a file works with a given nozzle it's done. Truck to truck I have not seen ANY difference. Nor do they "change". People that act like you need to custom tune every truck just don't have a good file and the trucks it "works" on just have owners that don't care or don't know better.

A good file will always work on a truck that isn't broken.

 

[Charles]

I began to wonder why ever other person I talked to on the phone the past few weeks was asking about using 200% nozzles, so I did some digging. I could have guessed it was more real life experience from Charles.

Tim saved me a bunch of typing.



I can't agree more.

Sad that reality could be seen so negatively. In your case just tell people you don't know what you're doing and hang up if they ask about anything stronger than an AD.

I think plenty of people have taken tuning home with them being fed up with the idiots they have to try and pull tuning out of. I can't get a 200% file not to pull like a freight train without smoking. Not after tedious tuning..... just right out of the gate.

It does NOT take custom tuning. You simply can't call for 4 ***ing milliseconds of fuel with 2000 psi at part throttle or other dumb sh*t like that.

Get on board or just sell AD's and AB's and hang up if they ask about anything else.

 

[jngreen]

Sad that reality could be seen so negatively. In your case just tell people you don't know what you're doing and hang up if they ask about anything stronger than an AD.

I think plenty of people have taken tuning home with them being fed up with the idiots they have to try and pull tuning out of. I can't get a 200% file not to pull like a freight train without smoking. Not after tedious tuning..... just right out of the gate.

It does NOT take custom tuning. You simply can't call for 4 ***ing milliseconds of fuel with 2000 psi at part throttle or other dumb sh*t like that.

Get on board or just sell AD's and AB's and hang up if they ask about anything else.

That's not really fair. How many injector builders actually tune what they sell? Swamps are about the only vendor that I can think of.
I would be interested in hearing what those guys have to say. From what I remember, they don't necessarily push larger nozzles to their towing customers.